How common was religious imagery on tsuba?

[Jesta]

I recently picked this one up. It appears to be a stylised representation of the halo of the Amida Buddha. I am curious about the theme…

Was this a common theme? Was it like the European knights having Christian imagery worked into their swords and armour as protective symbols? 

Given the wide variety of imagery from nature, legend, folklore, history etc on tsuba were there areas that specialised in religious themes? 

(This is connected to the current discussion started by iado dude on another thread)

 

 

[Jake6500]

2 hours ago, Jesta said:

I recently picked this one up. It appears to be a stylised representation of the halo of the Amida Buddha. I am curious about the theme…

Was this a common theme? Was it like the European knights having Christian imagery worked into their swords and armour as protective symbols? 

Given the wide variety of imagery from nature, legend, folklore, history etc on tsuba were there areas that specialised in religious themes? 

(This is connected to the current discussion started by iado dude on another thread)

 

 

 

Not a fan of the comparison to European knights as these sorts of East-West comparisons have resulted in severe misinterpretations about East Asian cultures already, the notion of "bushido" as "samurai ethic" (Nitobe basically concocted this notion of a unifying samurai ethic at the start of the Meiji Period) being a prime example.

 

That aside, it appears that certain religious themes were certainly present on occasion in Tosogu. Themes and designs such as the buddhist karmic wheel or of the Dharma have made their way into tsuba and I have seen numerous examples of this already despite my relative inexperience as a collector.

[Jesta]

28 minutes ago, Jake6500 said:

 

Not a fan of the comparison to European knights as these sorts of East-West comparisons have resulted in severe misinterpretations about East Asian cultures already, the notion of "bushido" as "samurai ethic" (Nitobe basically concocted this notion of a unifying samurai ethic at the start of the Meiji Period) being a prime example.

 

That aside, it appears that certain religious themes were certainly present on occasion in Tosogu. Themes and designs such as the buddhist karmic wheel or of the Dharma have made their way into tsuba and I have seen numerous examples of this already despite my relative inexperience as a collector.

Thanks. I have seen wheels, halos, and possible Jesuit influences (tokei tsuba), but wondering how much this was a thing, and whether it was for design aesthetics or as some form of protective charm… 

On a side note:
The comparison was strictly limited to people who wear armour and use swords… Christian symbols were often incorporated into these items, so I am interested in whether this was similar in Japan. FWIW: As far as I can tell the whole chivalric idea is pretty much bullshit retrospectively applied, in much the same way that Bushido was… 

[OceanoNox]

I read there are theories about the nature and the mundane themes (like everyday items) being about remembering life and beauty, in contrast to the violent episodes of warriors' lives. As it is, unless someone has some written document or journal that states why some design choice was made, we won't know if it's simply esthetics, religious or philosophical belief, or to invoke protection/strength, etc.

Perhaps people who have seriously designed tsuba can weigh in, but I do like the look and texture of the halo (amida yasuri) over relatively rough iron, so in my case, it's less about meaning and more about visual effects.

[DoTanuki yokai]

Are these  religious ? 

 

 

[Jesta]

13 minutes ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Are these  religious ? 
 

 

 

I would say absolutely… Fascinating to see overtly Christian iconography on a tsuba. 

[Jake6500]

47 minutes ago, Jesta said:

I would say absolutely… Fascinating to see overtly Christian iconography on a tsuba. 

 

There are actually numerous tsuba with Christian iconography and the cross does appear somewhat frequently in tsuba, though usually more covertly.

[DoTanuki yokai]

So I would assume your Tsuba with the Buddha rays is also religious and it is actually a very common theme.

[Brian]

99% Chance they were added later.

[Jake6500]

16 minutes ago, Brian said:

99% Chance they were added later.

 

I think it would depend in part upon where and when the tsuba was crafted. Christianity was definitely *present* in medieval Japan at different intervals and in different provinces, particularly in Northern Kyushu or in the Sendai region under the Otomo and Date clans respectively.

[Brian]

Both of these have been presented before, and both are regarded as added later to increase interest iirc. Unconvincingly done, and the second one doesn't have a convincing aesthetic. They also don't match the schools of the tsuba.
Most verified Christian tsuba (and there are very, very few of them) are done very discreetly.

[DoTanuki yokai]

I just picked them from a short google search I don’t think that they lose the point of being religious because the symbols are added later. Of cause if it is indeed only done for deception it wouldn’t be really a religious thing. 

Still it would show that religious decoration on Tsuba was a common thing even more for „Japanese“ religions. 

[Jesta]

39 minutes ago, Brian said:

Both of these have been presented before, and both are regarded as added later to increase interest iirc. Unconvincingly done, and the second one doesn't have a convincing aesthetic. They also don't match the schools of the tsuba.
Most verified Christian tsuba (and there are very, very few of them) are done very discreetly.

I was looking through the archives and read the thread on tokei tsuba. Do you think that they are Christian (Jesuit) or more likely to be Buddhist symbols? Or are they really just clock gears? 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Religious symbolism played a very great part in the bushi world.

 

Christianity flourished briefly after the first missionaries arrived but was soon heavily proscribed, generally becoming 'discrete' as said above. Exceptions noted. (I have had quite a few tsuba over the years which could be interpreted as Christian, for varying reasons.)

 

But this question has been argued hotly and repeatedly here on this forum.

[Jake6500]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Both of these have been presented before, and both are regarded as added later to increase interest iirc. Unconvincingly done, and the second one doesn't have a convincing aesthetic. They also don't match the schools of the tsuba.
Most verified Christian tsuba (and there are very, very few of them) are done very discreetly.

 

Didn't realize you were talking about these specific examples. I was just talking more generally.

[Mark]

Grey and I have this one https://japaneseswor...-iron-sukashi-tsuba/

[FlorianB]

I think a lot of Tsuba advertised as „christian“ have none or only a doubtful connection to Christianity. But obviously it sells!
Look at this „crosses“ and „Crown of Thorns“ :
https://zentnercolle...of-tsuba-with-stand/

 

There are Tsuba with religious background, Kanji forming „Namu Amida Butsu“, religious items or holy persons are depicted, but on more abstract motives it is in the eye of viewer to recognize a religious interpretation.

 

Best,
Florian

[JohnTo]

Hi Guys,

I think that I may have a tsuba with a hidden Christian symbol.  The tsuba is a variation on the common theme of horse-riding equipment.

The first example (not one of mine, an internet image) shows a normal arrangement with a saddle, bit and a pair of abumi (stirrups).

In my example the arrangement comprises a saddle, bit and whip.  The unusual feature is that the bit has been disjointed with the part that goes in the horse’s mouth becoming separated from the rings that attach the reigns.  One ring is completed missing and would lie outside the area of the tsuba and the other is separated from the central part by the seppa-dai, a separation which would be even more pronounced when mounted on a sword as the tsuka would also be present.  The remaining ring of the bit, in its isolation, could be viewed as the clan mon of the Shimadzu, or a Christian cross.

The tsuba is signed Hidemitsu (possibly H 01077.0, died ca.1750 and worked in Nagasaki making Hizen style sukashi tsuba).  Kyushu, where Nagasaki is located, was the home of the Shimazu clan and also had a significant secret Christian population during the Edo period, as Christianity was banned.  The Shimazu clan also fought against the Tokugawa at the battle of Sekigahara, so maybe their samurai did not want to openly display their clan allegiance when visiting Edo, for example.

So is the isolated ring from a horse bit the Shimazu mon, a Christian symbol, or just a more abstract way of representing a common theme on a tsuba?

All the best, John 

[Bugyotsuji]

I have a Japanese book of kamon which discusses exactly that, the history of the cross shape and how long it was found in Japan, and how the Shimazu cross has this deniability factor built into it, and how they are able to insist it is an ancient kutsuwa (horse bit) design.

[Franco D]

Fyi, https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/13261-beautiful-christian-tsuba/

[Jake6500]

20 hours ago, JohnTo said:

Hi Guys,

I think that I may have a tsuba with a hidden Christian symbol.  The tsuba is a variation on the common theme of horse-riding equipment.

The first example (not one of mine, an internet image) shows a normal arrangement with a saddle, bit and a pair of abumi (stirrups).

In my example the arrangement comprises a saddle, bit and whip.  The unusual feature is that the bit has been disjointed with the part that goes in the horse’s mouth becoming separated from the rings that attach the reigns.  One ring is completed missing and would lie outside the area of the tsuba and the other is separated from the central part by the seppa-dai, a separation which would be even more pronounced when mounted on a sword as the tsuka would also be present.  The remaining ring of the bit, in its isolation, could be viewed as the clan mon of the Shimadzu, or a Christian cross.

The tsuba is signed Hidemitsu (possibly H 01077.0, died ca.1750 and worked in Nagasaki making Hizen style sukashi tsuba).  Kyushu, where Nagasaki is located, was the home of the Shimazu clan and also had a significant secret Christian population during the Edo period, as Christianity was banned.  The Shimazu clan also fought against the Tokugawa at the battle of Sekigahara, so maybe their samurai did not want to openly display their clan allegiance when visiting Edo, for example.

So is the isolated ring from a horse bit the Shimazu mon, a Christian symbol, or just a more abstract way of representing a common theme on a tsuba?

All the best, John 

 

So I have seen exactly this design floating around...

 

My inclination is that this is NOT a Christian tsuba and that the symbol is the Shimazu clan mon. I would say the distinct difference is in the placement of the horizontal axis.

 

The Shimazu crest is characterised by the horizontal axis being perfectly centered (as we see in these examples) whereas discreet Christian tsuba or the Christian cross is generally characterised by having a higher placed horizontal axis instead of a symmetrical or centered one. 

 

The Shimazu clan was one of the most significant and powerful clans of the period so tsuba with symmetrical, perfectly centered horizontal axes should be considered Shimazu mon tsuba by default. One thing I will suggest is that Christian samurai, seeking to be more discreet may have used the Shimazu mon as an alternative, however this is still undoubtedly the Shimazu mon and not the Christian cross!

[ZH1980]

On 8/19/2024 at 6:05 PM, Brian said:

Both of these have been presented before, and both are regarded as added later to increase interest iirc. Unconvincingly done, and the second one doesn't have a convincing aesthetic. They also don't match the schools of the tsuba.
Most verified Christian tsuba (and there are very, very few of them) are done very discreetly.

The idea that Christian designs on tsuba would be highly discreet is an interesting one. I bought the attached Yagyu tsuba from a Japanese dealer who speculated that the cross in the tsuba was a Christian symbol. I thought it was a stretch at the time, but was reminded of this conversation due to this thread.

[Jesta]

2 hours ago, ZH1980 said:

The idea that Christian designs on tsuba would be highly discreet is an interesting one. I bought the attached Yagyu tsuba from a Japanese dealer who speculated that the cross in the tsuba was a Christian symbol. I thought it was a stretch at the time, but was reminded of this conversation due to this thread.

This seems to be closer to the ones discussed here: 

 

[Jake6500]

3 hours ago, ZH1980 said:

The idea that Christian designs on tsuba would be highly discreet is an interesting one. I bought the attached Yagyu tsuba from a Japanese dealer who speculated that the cross in the tsuba was a Christian symbol. I thought it was a stretch at the time, but was reminded of this conversation due to this thread.

I'm actually not sure where the cross is meant to be here but this actually looks like a karmic wheel tsuba. There is an ongoing thread about Ohno tsuba near the top of the Tosogu forums right now that resemble this design.

 

This tsuba if anything appears to have Buddhist iconography as was common in pre and early Edo tsuba, not Christian.

[Bugyotsuji]

With that one I do not see Buddhist or Christian iconography. In general though, talismanic (religious?) iconography seems relatively not so rare, if it is both decoratively pleasing and structurally functional.

[Spartancrest]

The subject has been well covered in the past but good to see renewed interest.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/34262-edo-period-christian-themed-tsuba/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/19732-new-article-about-christian-tsuba/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45516-help-with-christian-tsuba/

 

Still scratching my head to see this series of guards as "Christian"? https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/13261-beautiful-christian-tsuba/

 

Secret compartment tsuba with Christian symbol hidden within - just don't rattle the sword!

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Over the years I have posted things and subsequently forgotten them, so now I need to go back and read everything again, which tsuba I have posted, and all the arguments for and against!

 

One thing is for sure, though, it seems that you cannot talk openly about Christianity even today in Japan, unless it is at some specialist convention or scholarly meeting. I have noticed that people will try to avoid talking about it, like it's anti-magnetic, or they will subconsciously drop their voices as if they are somehow afraid of being overheard. Of course it is possible that Japanese people think I might be a Christian and they don't want to encourage me to start talking.(?) For this reason I have on occasion explained that although I come from a Christian background, I have done yoga and Buddhism, and we had a Shinto marriage, so I am not in the business of pushing the forms of religion in any direction.

 

Here’s a fairly recent arrival.

 

[Jake6500]

5 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

The subject has been well covered in the past but good to see renewed interest.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/34262-edo-period-christian-themed-tsuba/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/19732-new-article-about-christian-tsuba/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45516-help-with-christian-tsuba/

 

Still scratching my head to see this series of guards as "Christian"? https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/13261-beautiful-christian-tsuba/

 

Secret compartment tsuba with Christian symbol hidden within - just don't rattle the sword!

 

 

 

Glad I'm not the only one who sees no connection between the "clock gear" tsuba and Christian iconography.

[Jesta]

10 hours ago, Jake6500 said:

 

Glad I'm not the only one who sees no connection between the "clock gear" tsuba and Christian iconography.

Don't want to take this too far off-topic, but I was fascinated by the discussion of the tokei tsuba. I am agnostic about whether they are religious symbols, but I am still somewhat gobsmacked by how common they are, and why anyone would produce a tsuba with a clock gear on it. It just seems such a random design item… 

[Jake6500]

1 hour ago, Jesta said:

Don't want to take this too far off-topic, but I was fascinated by the discussion of the tokei tsuba. I am agnostic about whether they are religious symbols, but I am still somewhat gobsmacked by how common they are, and why anyone would produce a tsuba with a clock gear on it. It just seems such a random design item… 

 

It is a bit of a mysterious one and I'm not so sure it really is a "clock gear" design. That said, pocket watches or the like were items of Western ephemera. I could see why Japanese people in the Edo Period with a fascination for Western culture might want such a design. Essentially, it is for the same reason that we obsess over Tosogu in this forum!