Ohno Kuruma tsuba (compared to Kanayama)

[Iaido dude]

When I was studying the genetics of a mysterious kidney disease (IgA nephropathy) in Singapore and then back in Boston, I was a member of a so-called Consensus Working Group. Such a group of "experts" would come together in a collaborative effort to share such expertise towards a specific scientific goal. In our case, the question was if we could come up with a staging system that could "classify" this disease by renal pathology based only on features that could be assessed by light microscopic imaging of a kidney biopsy sample. IgAN was a tissue diagnosis because there was no diagnostic blood test; to this day we don't have a definitive serum or genetic test. We looked at 20 different kinds of structural changes that have been associated with other kidney diseases. In the end, we found that only 4 pathologic lesions could predict the clinical course of this disease. The "Oxford Classification of Nephropathy" continues to be the basis for the clinicopathologic classification of this disease. This classification system is similar to the staging of solid tumors.

 

This is a medical research analogy to what we do when we classify tsuba into distinct "schools." Ohno is a great example of such a categorical label. What I propose is that those who have contributed significantly to this forum and other experts come together to form a Ohno Consensus Working Group. We need examples, preferably owned by members of the working group, of Ohno category tsuba and other closely related categories (e.g. Kanayama, Yagyu) to study in order to establish those core identifiable traits (e.g thickness, weight, type of mimi, quality and texture of iron, motifs/composition, sociopolitical and geographic history). The end goal is a scholarly publication. Any thoughts?

[Jake6500]

3 hours ago, Iaido dude said:

When I was studying the genetics of a mysterious kidney disease (IgA nephropathy) in Singapore and then back in Boston, I was a member of a so-called Consensus Working Group. Such a group of "experts" would come together in a collaborative effort to share such expertise towards a specific scientific goal. In our case, the question was if we could come up with a staging system that could "classify" this disease by renal pathology based only on features that could be assessed by light microscopic imaging of a kidney biopsy sample. IgAN was a tissue diagnosis because there was no diagnostic blood test; to this day we don't have a definitive serum or genetic test. We looked at 20 different kinds of structural changes that have been associated with other kidney diseases. In the end, we found that only 4 pathologic lesions could predict the clinical course of this disease. The "Oxford Classification of Nephropathy" continues to be the basis for the clinicopathologic classification of this disease. This classification system is similar to the staging of solid tumors.

 

This is a medical research analogy to what we do when we classify tsuba into distinct "schools." Ohno is a great example of such a categorical label. What I propose is that those who have contributed significantly to this forum and other experts come together to form an Ohno Consensus Working Group. We need examples, preferably owned by members of the working group, of Ohno category tsuba and other closely related categories (e.g. Kanayama, Yagyu) to study in order to establish those core identifiable traits (e.g thickness, weight, type of mimi, quality and texture of iron, motifs/composition, sociopolitical and geographic history). The end goal is a scholarly publication. Any thoughts?

 

I have no specific samples of my own to contribute but I think it would be a great idea.

[Toryu2020]

Yagyu design - Ono execution

[Curran]

4 hours ago, Iaido dude said:

 

Steve and I have been looking at this big "Kanayama," but is more likely Ohno. I think it has a strong design, but the condition is a bit questionable. Apparently, this seller is not reliable. What a shame, as this may be something that Curran has been waiting for...

 

 

I bought a better example of this design, though it would be nicer if I had just bought Jim Gilbert's back in the day. Mine has NBTHK papers to Ono, which was nice- but I would have bought it papered or unpapered.

  The one that is currently up is with SWLibro seller?  Some minor things about the patina and the seppa dai give me pause. If the seller is whom I think, yes I too would be cautious.

 

[Curran]

4 hours ago, Iaido dude said:

This is a medical research analogy to what we do when we classify tsuba into distinct "schools." Ohno is a great example of such a categorical label. What I propose is that those who have contributed significantly to this forum and other experts come together to form an Ohno Consensus Working Group. We need examples, preferably owned by members of the working group, of Ohno category tsuba and other closely related categories (e.g. Kanayama, Yagyu) to study in order to establish those core identifiable traits (e.g thickness, weight, type of mimi, quality and texture of iron, motifs/composition, sociopolitical and geographic history). The end goal is a scholarly publication. Any thoughts?

 

Ono is one of the hardest, because different scholars have sliced and diced in different ways over the years.

Even Torigoye+Haynes said there were "two different types of Ono" with the subtext of Really Good Ones, and not so good ones that got put there because scholars didn't know where else to place them in the Owari area pantheon.

I also had a well recognized Temple Bell 'Kanayama' (Nihon to Koza) that was both thin, small, yakite, etc., but the NBTHK went Hozon to Ono.  Not sure why??

In my particular case: I simply exclude the underwhelming "Ono" (placed there by NBTHK) and focus on the Owari To Mikawa book type examples.

 

I know this is unscientific, but I cannot be bothered by the boring ones the NBTHK wants to call Ono.

A little arrogance has its time and place in the Art world, though perhaps less in the medical world.

[Iaido dude]

Oooh! I want that one!!!! It’s also a kanayama design. Sasano gold plate 74. Thickness might distinguish these. 

[PhoenixDude]

Can someone enlighten me about what the deal is with the 2014 nbthk hozon papers mentioned earlier?

[Steve Waszak]

I'm a fan of what Steve proposes regarding an Ohno Consensus Working Group, (and, perhaps, not only for Ohno).  In particular, the inductive approach Steve describes is one I have highly endorsed and subscribed to for years (as many will know).  This much more systematic and objectively analytical method isn't sufficiently present in tosogu scholarship, in my experience.  Instead, there is too much reliance on uncritically accepting "what Sensei said," both in Japan and in the West.  Clearly, there can be value in "Sensei's" teachings, even a lot of value; the trick is to discern what is valid and valuable, on the one hand, and what, on the other hand, is based on "traditional understandings" which had as their basis questionable "knowledge" followed by a steady and stubborn subscribing to an Emperor's-New-Clothes narrative. 

 

Navigating these murky waters is tricky, of course.  But that's why what Steve proposes here is so inviting:  anchoring an approach to tsuba scholarship in the material details of what can be seen in the objects themselves, and then, when a sort of "critical mass" of generalization can be realized, moving relatively organically to a more deductive approach by which theories and understandings can be tested.  In the end, we still may not arrive at any absolutely hard and fast conclusions, but given the current  instability present in assigning "Ohno membership" to a variety of disparate tsuba, it seems to me Steve's proposal has merit and certainly worth pursuing.  

[Winchester]

Plainly, it will help to have examples for discussion. 

 

Who, in addition to Thomas, can share more?

 

Next steps?

[Iaido dude]

18 hours ago, PhoenixDude said:

Can someone enlighten me about what the deal is with the 2014 nbthk hozon papers mentioned earlier?

I think it’s just that the results of shinsa are not always right. They have a tough job trying to fit all tsuba into “schools,” which is not suited for some tsuba with features of multiple categories. And then they can just be plain wrong. 

[Tim Evans]

"You can clearly see the difference in thickness between the karmic wheel tsuba and its two counterparts. This observation gives me pause as it makes me wonder why the tsuba of the Momoyama period would be thinner given the assumed decline in practicality of tsuba over time."

 

On page 8 of Early Japanese Sword Guards (gold book) Masayuki Sasano opined that smaller, lighter sukashi tsuba were made for the slimmer, lighter, Late Koto one-hand uchigatana, and, that tsuba then became thicker to balance the more substantial Early Shinto daito and shoto. Alfred Dobree wrote a book titled Japanese Sword Blades where he discussed the Center of Percussion (as it relates to the cutting efficiency of the sword), which is related to Center of Mass, which can be affected by the weight of the tsuba.

[Tim Evans]

On 8/18/2024 at 6:11 AM, Soshin said:

 

I remember reading the same thing in various references, I have never seen any tsuba with a Yagyu design with a signature or other design features that would point to an Edo (Musashi Province) production versus an Owari Province production. Please someone post a photo of one it would be nice to study such an example.   

Here is one similar to #123 in the Yagyu inventory. Dr. Torigoye notes three production periods of Yagyu type tsuba, so this is a later Akasaka copy of the style by Tadatoki.  Also another, #94 in the inventory signed Yamakichibei

[Iaido dude]

Tim, so are you saying that Sasano’s theory regarding lighter (eg Kanayama) and heavier (Ohno) tsuba, would then explain why the thick Ohno tsuba were made not because it was a practical necessity of warfare? Rather, they were made to accommodate newer generations of sword making. Or do I have time periods for these styles of katana completely wrong?

[Iaido dude]

22 hours ago, Winchester said:

Plainly, it will help to have examples for discussion. 

 

Who, in addition to Thomas, can share more?

 

Next steps?

We have on this post a number of solid candidates for a learning set.

SteveH: Kuruma (1)

SteveW: double tomoe previously sold on NMB (1)

Andrew Quirt (nihonto.us): he has a triple aoi for sale on his site (1)

Didier: Kuruma (2)

Thomas: Yagyu deslgn, need to confirm dimensions (1)

Curran: probably has at least (2-3)

Sasano: although we cannot see in hand, he had an amazing eye. at least some of his tsuba can also be used as Ohno examples

 

I've been thinking about using AI to learn in ways that we may not see patterns. For this, and even if for us to manually eye  ball, we need robust data from a learning set that is both quantitative and qualitative and historical, which we need to decide. 

For example:

Quantitative: W x H x thickness, weight, historical context (can we date reasonably well), geographical context (Owari Province).

Qualitative: features of the patina such as tekkotsu, tuschimi, etc, are not as problematic as one might think. If we have enough of a learning set, we can chose our "experts" and have them score the tsuba set. If there is no statistical significance for any of the variables (doesn't correlate across all experts), then the variable is abandoned because it cannot be reliably scored.

 

[Jake6500]

4 hours ago, Iaido dude said:

Tim, so are you saying that Sasano’s theory regarding lighter (eg Kanayama) and heavier (Ohno) tsuba, would then explain why the thick Ohno tsuba were made not because it was a practical necessity of warfare? Rather, they were made to accommodate newer generations of sword making. Or do I have time periods for these styles of katana completely wrong?

 

It sounds like Tim is saying the weight and thickness of the tsuba changed as uchigatana evolved around this timeframe from being a single-handed to a two-handed weapon. 

 

On a two-handed weapon you would presumably want a lower center of mass and a greater amount of weight as this would improve the weapons ability to cut.  A thicker, heavier tsuba helps achieve this on later two-handed weapons.

 

I had never thought about that possibility but it makes logical sense.

[Tim Evans]

12 hours ago, Iaido dude said:

Tim, so are you saying that Sasano’s theory regarding lighter (eg Kanayama) and heavier (Ohno) tsuba, would then explain why the thick Ohno tsuba were made not because it was a practical necessity of warfare? Rather, they were made to accommodate newer generations of sword making. Or do I have time periods for these styles of katana completely wrong?

Jake has summarized what Sasano is getting at, basically a change in tsuba size as a response to the transition to Shinto sugata swords. I think there are some other possibilities.

 

First some numbers. I measured a typical Kanayama tsuba and a massive Ohno that I have. I consider these to be for shorter swords based on the seppa-dai length.

Kanayama - 65.5 X 6mm. Weight = 67 grams

Ohno - 69 x 7mm. Weight = 128 grams

 

The Ohno weighs significantly more even though it is not that much bigger. So why is that? 

• I am not sure Sasano's opinion applies in this case because of the large weight difference. I would not think the weight would need to be increased that much. 
• It could be that a martial ryu commissioned heavy tsuba to complement specific sword techniques. This consideration still exists for koryu bokuto, where some bokuto are made light and others are made heavy depending on the training application. 
• Or, maybe it is just about achieving a desired visual or psychological effect with the massive, broad rim, weight not being a consideration?  Sort of like a style or culture statement, a teabowl on a stick?

Apparently the thicker heavier tsuba trend did not catch on since most other tsuba shops did not make similar products. Today's tsubaka highly value the massive rim Ohno and Owari sukashi tsuba because of the strong virile sculptural shapes. 

 

 

[Iaido dude]

Beautiful analysis, Jake and Tim.. 

 

By this same logic, Yagyu tsuba should be thin and relatively light to accommodate the rapid and fluid style of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. From what I can gather from the gold book, the Yagyu tsuba are on average 5 mm, they are >6.5-7.5 mm diameter, so weight was likely not a factor. The designs are stylistic and meaningful, so perhaps that requirement was the impetus for Yagyu. If Ohno made pieces for the Yagyu. They would have had to rein in the familiar tendency to make thick tsuba in their own tradition. 

[Tim Evans]

I have only seen one first period Yagyu tsuba with a history to Renya, and was not allowed to hold it. I have owned a number of second and third period Yagyu tsuba and those did not seem to be noticeably lighter or heavier than something else the same size. They do tend to look a little small. It would be hard to say if the later ones had an association to the ryu. 

 

 

[Soshin]

On 8/19/2024 at 8:06 PM, Tim Evans said:

Here is one similar to #123 in the Yagyu inventory. Dr. Torigoye notes three production periods of Yagyu type tsuba, so this is a later Akasaka copy of the style by Tadatoki.  Also another, #94 in the inventory signed Yamakichibei

 

 

@Tim Evans Thank you for posting this example. It is helpful to see and study such an example of a late Yagyu style tsuba being made by the Akasaka School. 

[Soshin]

More research marital for Steve @Iaido dude. I papered this tsuba to Onō by the NBTHK when it was in my collection. I purchased it from @rkg. It had many wonderful iron bones along the rim. I really miss this tsuba.   

 

[Tim Evans]

Here are some other Ohno candidates that I have had, some have been sold here on NMB so maybe the present owners can provide details

Mokko with tessen mon as used by the Nagai clan of Mikawa, very strong tekkotsu on the mimi

Marugata, mitustomoe. Many clans used this mon. 

Nadekakugata with Yagyu-ish elements – Waves, diamonds, rectangular seppadai. Probably later work since thinner and no tekkotsu 

Marugata, with miyoga mon. Also used by many clans and commonly found in Owari works. 

[Iaido dude]

On 8/22/2024 at 6:48 AM, Soshin said:

More research marital for Steve @Iaido dude. I papered this tsuba to Onō by the NBTHK when it was in my collection. I purchased it from @rkg. It had many wonderful iron bones along the rim. I really miss this tsuba.   

 

 

What is thickness and weight of this tsuba?

[Iaido dude]

19 hours ago, Tim Evans said:

Here are some other Ohno candidates that I have had, some have been sold here on NMB so maybe the present owners can provide details

Mokko with tessen mon as used by the Nagai clan of Mikawa, very strong tekkotsu on the mimi

Marugata, mitustomoe. Many clans used this mon. 

Nadekakugata with Yagyu-ish elements – Waves, diamonds, rectangular seppadai. Probably later work since thinner and no tekkotsu 

Marugata, with miyoga mon. Also used by many clans and commonly found in Owari works. 

I especially like the first two. Do you recall the reasons you considered them to be Ohno?

[Tim Evans]

9 hours ago, Iaido dude said:

I especially like the first two. Do you recall the reasons you considered them to be Ohno?

# 1, 2,and 4 have the distinctive tekkotsu and coarse jigane. This needs to be seen in-hand, not something that can be accurately depicted with an image. #3 is more of a guess based on the design elements. Okamoto, Sasano and Kremers allow for finer grained, no tekkotsu, maru mimi tsuba with the right "look" as late Ohno. 

[hobnails]

Here is an example of an Ono tsuba I bought from a board member signed Shimomura Fukushige I was wondering if it’s made in the style of  Yagyu  with the wave theme, it’s pretty heavy for its size it is 8mm thick at the rim and measures 75mm x 65mm the iron seems to have a sandy texture looking forwards to hearing you thoughts.

Chris H

[ROKUJURO]

I also get an impression of NANBAN style.

[Soshin]

On 8/24/2024 at 6:37 AM, Iaido dude said:

 

What is thickness and weight of this tsuba?

 

Sorry, I missed what information you wanted. I don't have the weight of the tsuba and cannot measure it as the tsuba is no longer in my collection. I did keep a record of the measurements of the tsuba and here they are 7.1 cm X 7.2 cm, 5.8 mm at rim.      

[Tim Evans]

15 hours ago, hobnails said:

Here is an example of an Ono tsuba I bought from a board member signed Shimomura Fukushige I was wondering if it’s made in the style of  Yagyu  with the wave theme, it’s pretty heavy for its size it is 8mm thick at the rim and measures 75mm x 65mm the iron seems to have a sandy texture looking forwards to hearing you thoughts.

Chris H

If you send it in to an NBTHK Shnisa, it would likely be papered to Shimomura Yoshishige (AKA Fukumo), a known Ohno smith, rather than Yagyu. It does have some Yagyu-ish characteristics. This is an important reference piece because it is fully signed. 

15 hours ago, hobnails said:

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Just for comparison: A rather graceful looking TSUBA papered to KANAYAMA DEN. 74,7 mm round, thickness 5,9 mm. A few linear TEKKOTSU in the MIMI.