GreyVR Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 I started collecting antique Japanese swords not long ago, and this is my first post here. If it is in the wrong place, please let me know. I'm brought to understand that the fit between blade, habaki, and saya needs to be exact, yet I noticed almost at once is that there are many koshirae, complete, for sale with no blade and there are many blades with no koshirae in a holding scabbard. How did they get separated? I'd imagine they can never be reunited due to the exactness of the fit required, but is that wrong? Is there a secret I'm unaware of whereby one can purchase a blade in shirasaya and not have a koshirae made but bought off the rack like a pair of pants? (I imagine that's silly, but I still wanted to ask.) And I ask because some koshirae are absolutely magnificent just by themselves, even the unreplaceable parts. It would feel bad for those really fine ones with unrecoverable art to be broken down for parts to be matched to a blade... but also sad for them never to be matched to a blade again.... which raises the question how so many swords ended up without their koshirae? Surely most of these shirasaya blades at one time had one or many koshirae... and if they are the only ones those fit... were are they? Why weren't they kept together? Tt would seem that a sword should always be sold with every set of Koshirae that has been made for it, yet it is clear this very rarely happens. (That said, I did have the idea of using cat scans or xrays to map the koshirae and 3d scanners to figure out how many might be made to match, but I know how difficult that would be logistically.... even if theoretically possible.) So my questions are "IS there a secret I'm unaware of to buying a koshirae and somehow matching it to a blade beyond just using it for parts?" and "How did so many get separated instead of kept together, especially in a culture so very good as taking care of their antiques?" Thank you all in advance for helping with my ignorance on this matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie B Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 (edited) Hi Geoige, I am not sure why or even if they are separated. My guess: Normally, if a sword is polished, a shirasaya would be made (post polish) so it doesn't get scratched by being placed back into its original Saya. The saya would then (normally) have a tsunagi made to keep the Koshirae together. But everything gets damaged if not looked after. So, if the sword gets rusty and is ruined, then there's a spare Koshirae. Likewise if insects eat the Koshirae, there is a stand-alone sword. Perhaps someone with a large collection passes away and the Shirasaya are separated from the Koshirae and the family mix them up, or sell them separately, not knowing they may be paired. Once parted, it's almost impossible to re pair them. Koshirae were changed out from time to time as the fashion, mood or even the law dictated, so a Samurai or Daimyo may have had several Koshirae for the one blade or blades (Daisho), depending on what they were up to. Especially during the Edo Period if attending the Castle. For example; they may have changed their 'local' or cultural regional koshirae (Higo, Owari, Satsuma etc) out for a Banzashi Koshirae, more in keeping with the etiquette or even the laws of visiting the Castle - Horn Kashira and rounded Saya on the Wakizashi for example. Perhaps they wanted something more flashy than their 'daily' Koshirae if they were visiting the Saki (Geisha) houses and wanted to show off a bit. Swords were expensive, so it made sense that they may have had several Koshirae for the same pair of swords, to suit different occasions. And that is without even including the wealthy merchants who probably changed Koshirae on their Wakizashi as the fashion, Zodiac year or even the seasons and festivals dictated. Samurai may have done the same. Lastly, (and this is a wild guess here) collectors may not want the Koshirae - or or the blade - as that ls not the focus of their collection, so they sell (or don't purchase) the other, in order to further fund their hobby..? Or they fall into hard times and have to sell one half to keep afloat? Who knows. As for pairing them back up, my advice would be nope, and don't even try. Apart from not having the money or resources to do that, it could potentially damage the blade in doing so. Barrie. Edited August 14 by Barrie B Corrected a spelling and grammatical mistake. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 There are surely dozens of reasons of how and why nihonto become separated from their koshirae not the least of which would be people are people. I can speak of two sets in particular. One set of fittings was sold separately because the sword they were on had a fatal flaw. As for a second set the actual reason the koshirae and sword became separated may never be known. However, just guessing, the sword was surely a prized heirloom to be kept, and for whatever reason, perhaps out of need, the koshirae was sold. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian B3HR2UH Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 Dealers can make more from selling the parts than they can from selling the whole sword so they separate them out . Westerners want a koshirae to display with their blade so the obliging dealer puts one together for them from his left over parts. Ian Brooks 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yumso Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 I've seen people giving up their sword for lots of reasons- when you take the sword to the police station and cancel the registration, the blade will be collected by them but you can take the fittings home. Since the fittings itself doesn't need any qualification to have it, many take them as some kind of souvenir. Also, I think other reason is because people prefer putting the blade in saya when it is not used. Yoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 Lots of reasons, several mentioned above. People also had new koshirae made for their sword, so sold off the old ones. Or the fittings were excellent and the blade just ok, so they make more money selling off the fittings separately. Some collectors only collect fittings, so will buy a sword and sell off the blade in shirasaya or apart. Japanese dealers come across many swords that are illegal. The blades are destroyed, the koshirae sold off. People who collect fittings swap out good stuff for average stuff, keep the best. It happens a lot more than anyone realizes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schneeds Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 Pre-Edo koshirae are quite rare, so by default the vast majority of koto blades have lost their original ones to time. If as Ian points out, a dealer has a blade which they think is good for the western audience, the koshirae has to come from some place else. Good information in this thread: 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeLuucas Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 It's the fault of all you crazy Tosogu collectors. Supply and demand after all… Just teasing/kidding of course, Cheers, -Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 I've always wondered...how do dealers put blades into koshirae made for another blade? I don't think they can just stuff the nakago into an existing tsuka, and stuff a blade into an existing saya with a different length/sori? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shugyosha Posted August 14 Report Share Posted August 14 Within reason it can be done - if the saya has similar curvature to the blade, the blade is narrower and not too long…likewise the tsuka. You can adjust the fit of a tsuka by inserting a shim to tighten the fit, drill another hole to fit a different nakago, add in some seppa to compensate for length… None of this is beyond the wit of man if you have enough bits and pieces and some basic skills and ingenuity/ low cunning. It’s crap but it’s reality unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian B3HR2UH Posted August 15 Report Share Posted August 15 They don't Gerry . I was offered some of these pieces ie newly polished blades in shirasaya with an accompanying mount . I obviously couldn't put the newly polished blade in the old saya to see if it fitted but I could see if the tsuka fitted over the nakago . It was no surprise that none of the handles fitted the blades they supposedly went with . It was just a mount thrown together to put on display . The lack of respect for their own history staggers me . The NBTHK must bear some responsibility for this , I think , as they seem to provide no incentive not to part things out . Ian Brooks 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tohagi Posted August 16 Report Share Posted August 16 My two cents... (Whithout warranty from the governement)... Around the surender, when Mac Arthur was governor of the Japan, there was an Edit that force the Japanese to give up the swords (to breack nationalist spirit), many where family swords and the owners were allowed to keep the koshirae ( many full koshirae are untouched and papered since). This could had a reason to all above. I personally noted tsukas with two mekugi ana in the same, the first filled with rice paper, and modified sayas... Some modifications were antiques !... Best regards, Éric VD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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