Gendaito?

[Nicholas]

Hi all,

 

   Just looking for some information on a Miyaguchi Kunimori signed Kai gunto. Would this be considered a gendaito? Does it look water quenched?

[Leen]

There is some fiery debate about that. With a solid group of people stating it is not traditional and another group stating (as intense) that it is.

I am in the camp of the nay sayers, but I am not merely as experienced as some people in the camp of the yay sayers. So you my answer probably doesn't help :-)

Does it have Nie?

Edited August 12 by Leen
typo

[John C]

Nicholas:

I'm in agreement with Leen above.

A couple of issues sparking the debate are:

1) the terminology is somewhat misleading. The word gendaito just means new sword, however we use it to describe a traditionally made sword and not a mass-produced one.

2) In terms of "traditionally made" is where it gets sticky. Some swords are hand forged and water quenched but use modern steel rather than tamahagane. But some swords use tamahagane, are water quenched, and star stamped. Are they both gendaito?

3) many RJT smiths made both traditionally made and non-traditionally made swords (machine forged, hand finished) so are those gendaito because of the smith?

4) There are also traditionally made swords prior to the RJT program (non-star stamped). These are harder to identify (water quenched but unsure of the steel used).

 

In some ways, it's personal preference. RJT star stamped tamahagane sword or any hand forged, water quenched blade.

 

John C.

[David Flynn]

I'm in the traditional basket.  All the ones I've seen, have Hada and a defined Habuchi.  Plus, the NBTHK, paper them.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Most likely Gendaito, considering it's a different Mei to the Ikkansai Kunimori swords made at the Okura Tanrenjo that trigger the most debate.

[Leen]

7 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Most likely Gendaito, considering it's a different Mei to the Ikkansai Kunimori swords made at the Okura Tanrenjo that trigger the most debate.

Could you elaborate on that John? 

[lonely panet]

Looks like a gendaito to me 

[PNSSHOGUN]

26 minutes ago, Leen said:

Could you elaborate on that John? 

 

We all had a red hot go at this topic in an old thread.  It was Miyaguchi's son who stated that the Ikkansai Kunimori signed blades made at Okura Tanrenjo were made of mill steel by students, and then signed by Yasuhiro in bundles. So we have an idea how most of those specific swords were made.

 

The question of the other Mei variant swords being made of Japanese mill steel and oil/water quenched is unknown and needs to be judged by the individual blade. The photos above do not immediately suggest an oil quenched blade. Slough lists these works as Gendaito, and the NTBHK have apparently papered most of the Mei variants. Others also have the opinion that the NBTHK aren't completely reliable when it comes to Gendaito, we have all seen some of the absolute shocker oil quenched Seki-To that inexplicably received Hozon papers of late.

 

 

[Leen]

Thanks for your explanation John, I would agree that the NBTHK is not always completely reliable regarding Gendaito.

Furthermore as a knifemaker myself. (I have an example of that myself next to the Seki-to you mentioned).

Judging individual swords is always wise

 

[Nicholas]

The reason this question came about is because I have both swords. One with the Miyaguchi Kunimori signature and the other with the Ikkansai Kunimori signature. While both swords have a good shape, the quality on the Miyaguchi Kunimori signed blade surpasses the Ikkansai by leaps and bounds. I wish there was more information on the differences in signatures. We’re these swords also forged at Okura Tanrenjo?

[Bruce Pennington]

13 hours ago, Nicholas said:

Were these swords also forged at Okura Tanrenjo?

I'd ask @mecox