Bullet or Shrapnel Struck Gunto

[Fusilier]

G'day Fella's, 

 

I have two questions about this sword which I'm hoping you can help me with.  I purchased it for resale over a decade ago from a retired NSW Police Superintendent.  He believed that the blade had been struck by a bullet, but I'm not sure.  I think if it'd had been hit by a HV round the blade would have shattered and a LV round would not have resulted in the sort of damage that is visible on the blade. The shape of the impact mark and the angle of the strike on the saya and blade indicate that if it was being carried at the time it was struck then the impact came from above and at an angle.  That, and the shape of the impact mark, lead me to believe that its a shrapnel impact.  Although I served for 3 decades I'm not going to claim any specialist knowledge of forensic ballistics other than the application of common sense. I was hoping that someone may have seen this sort of damage before or even a recorded HV strike on a gunto for reference. Although it is difficult to show in photographs, the impact has visibly and slightly 'bulged' the opposite side of the blade.

 

My second question is far more mundane and obvious. I was hoping someone might be able to translate the inscription on the nakago.  I can see a partial Seki stamp above the inscription which I understand indicates it was produced between 1940 and 1942 but any other information would be most welcome.

[Fusilier]

Close ups of the impact mark.  I haven't tried to remove the leather saya cover to inspect the damage on the wooden body but I can feel the shape through the leather.

 

Also attached an image of the inscription.

[Fusilier]

Final image is the opposite side of the blade from the strike mark.

[John C]

David:

Could be a long shot, however do you know if anyone has used a dry swab and test kit for traces of lead in the cavity? 

 

John C.

[Fusilier]

Good point John, I certainly haven't, as the scenes of crimes teams used to say in NI 'every contact leaves a trace'.

[xiayang]

The mei is

 

関谷口義包作 = Seki Taniguchi Yoshikane saku

[Fusilier]

G'day Jan,  Many thanks for that.

[PhoenixDude]

Doesn't look life a rifle round impact to me. Is there a hole in the Saya? You are probably correct about shrapnel.

[Kantaro]

Its from a bullet IMHO. 

[Matsunoki]

Agree it’s a bullet strike. Shrapnel would have cut the leather cover and left a more jagged imprint. You can almost see the shape of the round.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Perhaps a large caliber bullet from distance, having lost most the energy. Though one has to wonder how a bullet would have enough energy to do that much damage to the blade but not pierce the leather or Saya.

[Matsunoki]

I wondered if it was a smooth round from a .45 1911?

[robinalexander]

Not a bullet...LV or HV. Bullets are round...they make round shapes.....even when tumbling, still roundish...not rectangular.

 

If its period damage then its most likely shrapnel.

 

The combat cover is certainly not original 'cause no hole in it' .....so cover is post war or post damage at best.

[paul griff]

Hello,

        Agree with Rob ,leather on saya is later addition….Leather doesn’t look dried out enough plus seem next to stitching is very ‘sharp’ and undamaged…

Paul..

[Matsunoki]

43 minutes ago, robinalexander said:

Not a bullet...LV or HV. Bullets are round...they make round shapes.....even when tumbling, still roundish...not rectangular.

Maybe something like the one on the left hitting at an angle. Guesswork….we’ll never know.

[PhoenixDude]

The left is a lead cast semi-wadcutter, the right a jacketed hollowpoint, and neither would be used by any millitary in combat. The velocity of a typical 45 acp or 9mm is usually in the range of 900 to 1300fps, and would not damage steel like you are seeing here. And yes both of these would still make a round or ovoid hole.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Highly doubt there would be hardcast lead bullets being used! .45ACP Ball was the standard ammunition. Have to agree with Rob, the leather cover has been replaced at some stage. 

[robinalexander]

Col, the one on the left is sort of rectangular in the brass but at over 2500 FPS it makes a 'roundish' hole.

 

One can speculate, romanticise or just take a wild guess that fits a narrative (especially in sales) but at the end of the day you are 100% correct in that "we'll never know"

[Matsunoki]

Long time since I shot a 45. Please excuse my lack of ammo knowledge. Can’t even remember what we had way back….I think  it and the farm 1911  originally came from a USA WW2 bomber base!…..probably through a hole in the hedge 

 

[Brian]

Could be a bullet. Could be shrapnel. If a .45ACP went through something first, or hit the blade, it could deform and cause a mark like that. Not impossible if it travelled far enough and/or deformed. Having a shooting range at work for over 25 years and being in the industry for longer, I've seen just about everything. Either way, something hit it, and the soldier maybe carried on using it, and covered it with a combat cover. Maybe buying a new sword wasn't an option at the front lines.  We'll never know for sure.

[PhoenixDude]

Somebody donate their sword to me and I'll take it out to the range and shoot it with my GI 1911. Preferably a nice ubu koto tachi. For science.

[Fusilier]

4 hours ago, PhoenixDude said:

Somebody donate their sword to me and I'll take it out to the range and shoot it with my GI 1911. Preferably a nice ubu koto tachi. For science.

Nice try Jay !!

 

The Saya cover has certainly been replaced post damage,  I can feel the impact damage through the leather but I don't want to try and remove it as I'm not sure I'd be able to get it back on.  A .45 strike is certainly a possible explanation but I thought that given the angle of the strike into the Saya and the damage on the sword that it was most likely shrapnel damage. Of course that assumes that the officer was upright at the time of the impact.  If he was crouching, bending or lying prone, the projectile would have impacted at that angle so I suppose that's not really any sort of determinant.  Col and Rob are of course correct , we'll never know. Speaking as an old soldier though, whoever he was, he was bloody lucky that the blade caught it and didn't shatter.  Given how superstitious soldiers tend to be, I'd put money on the fact that he hung on to that lucky bit of kit for the rest of his service and gave it up very reluctantly.  I carried the same utility pouch for years with a hole through both sides (the one under my left arm in this shot) !!

[Ron M]

Hey guys I have a gunto saya that definitely was hit several times. Pic 3 shows the slug still in that hole. Check it out

[Fusilier]

17 minutes ago, Ron M said:

Hey guys I have a gunto saya that definitely was hit several times. Pic 3 shows the slug still in that hole. Check it out

Cheers Ron, That looks far more like the damage a HV round would cause, whats the diameter of that hole and have you any pics of the sword that was in the saya?

 

[PhoenixDude]

47 minutes ago, Ron M said:

Hey guys I have a gunto saya that definitely was hit several times. Pic 3 shows the slug still in that hole. Check it out

Yup. Bet if you measure the diameter of those holes they come out to exactly 7.6mm

[Cola]

13 hours ago, Fusilier said:

A .45 strike is certainly a possible explanation but I thought that given the angle of the strike into the Saya and the damage on the sword that it was most likely shrapnel damage. Of course that assumes that the officer was upright at the time of the impact.  If he was crouching, bending or lying prone, the projectile would have impacted at that angle so I suppose that's not really any sort of determinant.  Col and Rob are of course correct , we'll never know. Speaking as an old soldier though, whoever he was, he was bloody lucky that the blade caught it and didn't shatter.  

 

 

Forensics 80 years after the event are very close to speculation. 

 

Maybe he was indeed lucky and did not get a bullet in his leg that day.

But maybe he was already KIA when a stray bullet hit his sword.

Maybe the sword was captured by US troops and something exploded next to the tent the sword was being kept in.

 

 

[John C]

For 6 bucks you could find out if there are traces of lead left in the cavity. No lead - may or may not be a bullet; traces of lead - you have your answer.

https://www.amazon.com/Pawfly-All-New-Results-Seconds-Instant

 

John C

[Fusilier]

6 hours ago, John C said:

For 6 bucks you could find out if there are traces of lead left in the cavity. No lead - may or may not be a bullet; traces of lead - you have your answer.

https://www.amazon.com/Pawfly-All-New-Results-Seconds-Instant

 

John C

I reckon for 7 bucks, its worth finding out, even if its only to satisfy my own curiosity.

[Fusilier]

14 hours ago, Cola said:

 

Forensics 80 years after the event are very close to speculation. 

 

Maybe he was indeed lucky and did not get a bullet in his leg that day.

But maybe he was already KIA when a stray bullet hit his sword.

Maybe the sword was captured by US troops and something exploded next to the tent the sword was being kept in.

 

 

Thanks Carlo, I agree and of course you're correct, but I think it'd be interesting to determine whether it was shot or shell and on the balance of probabilities we can make some some informed speculation.

 

Given where it was sourced it's most likely to have been an Australian's souvenir and I think the re-covered leather Saya may indicate that it continued in use after it was struck.

 

Cheers David

[Cola]

14 hours ago, Fusilier said:

Thanks Carlo, I agree and of course you're correct, but I think it'd be interesting to determine whether it was shot or shell and on the balance of probabilities we can make some some informed speculation.

 

Given where it was sourced it's most likely to have been an Australian's souvenir and I think the re-covered leather Saya may indicate that it continued in use after it was struck.

 

Cheers David

Yes it's very intriguing! I think the hole left in the saya can possibly be more informative when it comes to the shape of the projectile.

One could consider an x-ray or ct-scan as a non-destructive means to get some more info in that regard.