wakizashi shape

[paulb]

Following the earlier post on shape and Brian's suggestion I have posted some wakizashi images below. The variation and range of shapes in wakizashi is far greater than that seen in longer blades. I hope I have captured a range below. One glaring omission is a hira-zkuri example but unfortunately I did not have one amongst my stock images. As in the previous post see which shape appeals to you most.

 

[Alex A]

Paul, Wakizashi shape to me has been one of the most under talked subjects in Nihonto.

 

Cheers for bringing it up.

[Alex A]

Having a bit more time, finding it hard to pick one, as none really seem to have the sori and taper that i like to see in a wak.

 

For that reason, id go with 3rd down, just because i find it the most interesting.

 

Taper seems to be the issue here. 

 

Used to own the perfect shape Wak, deep Sori, nice taper with longer kissaki.

 

This thread brings it to mind.

 

Flicking through sales pages, generally fly past waks where width at the kissaki is close to width at the hamachi.

 

Those above, just not enough difference and sori, for me.

[GeorgeLuucas]

This one is definitely more challenging!
 

I think my first pick would be #2 down, and I’m not sure I can say why. I imagine it’s o-suriage, and at full length its proportions would be more attractive. Something draws me to that one. 
 

Then #3, I’ve always been attracted to this shape. Hard not to like based on shape alone. 

 

Then #1 and then #4. 

Just the musings of a novice. I’m looking forward to what others have to say.

I do like wakizashi, because they’re often within my budget .

Cheers, 

-Sam

[Ron M]

Hira zukuri wakizashi, Mumei obviously due to I assume O-suriage, Nagasa is 54cm. Ray Singer believes Muromachi Soshu possibly 

[SteveM]

I think 1 and 3 for most interesting for me. 1 might be a shintō revival piece (based purely on the nakago shape). But it seems to have been made with some skill. 3 is naginata naoshi, and also well-made. Interesting. 

 

Just from the shape, and without any knowledge of the activities, 2 and 4 seem not so fascinating, but I will be interested to see what the outcome is. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

#2 holds my attention.

[Natichu]

Number 3 takes the cake for me as I'm quite fascinated with naginata naoshi, with my least favourite being 1. Please forgive my ignorance, but I had thought 1 would qualify as a hira-zukuri. What sugata is that? 

 

After 3, I'd say two would be my runner up. Seems to have some presence to the sugata to my eye though I can't say why (I may interpret the image as showing it having a high shinogi, but that I anticipate that is me mis-seeing things). 

[Brian]

Much more difficult.
In this case, I'm totally biased as I have a love for the naginata style blades, so I think I would automatically steer towards that one.
Looks like it may have been made as a wakizashi, with a bit of machi okuri.
That said, when looking at these, it is natural to look at the nakago first, and see if it is o-suriage and may have once been a katana or tachi. If it appears so, I try and imagine what the sugata would have been if it were longer.
#1 Looks to me to have atobori hi maybe. Nice, but I think I'm veer towards #4 with the caution that the nakago jiri is trying to say it's ubu, but the ana say it is shortened a lot. This one may be deceptive.

[Rivkin]

#1 shinto. Hizen Masahiro made those, many other people did.

#2 very crisp and well defined o-maru boshi? Generally rare on later blades, Muromachi+. There is some taper involved. This is an old blade that was greatly cut down. Because of the unusual boshi and probably tight (invisible) jigane with suguha, guess Enju or Awataguchi.

#3 Late Nanbokucho naginata, cut down. Attempting to guess without seeing the jigane or frankly anything except barely something outlining the hamon - Bizen or Yamato Shizu.

#4 Circa 1640 shinto.

 

In out-of-polish state I would pursue #2 and possibly #3.

Does anything here has "great sugata"? Sorry - Not in my book. Some are good blades still. #2 probably used to have a good shape, but now it is 20% of the appeal it had as ubu. 

[Benjamin]

disconnecting the brain, only responding by feeling :

 

3 first

2

1

Ron's Hira zukiri wakizashi in fourth

4 last

[Matsunoki]

Just a personal opinion, but if we are judging true wakizashi I think we should be looking at ubu wakizashi, not longer blades that have become wakizashi via suriage.

[paulb]

Personally I find wakizashi more challenging in a lot of ways. I think today they suffer somewhat unfairly as "the poor relation". It's true they are far more common than other forms of sword. I think the fact they were not exclusive weapons of the Samurai also weighs against them in some peoples view. It is true that very many wakizashi we see are what might be considered utilitarian and to coin a much used Japanese phrase "of little artistic merit". However a couple of things to consider. A samurai entering a house left his katana at the entrance. The Wakizashi was carried by him at all times. It was there for personal protection and also to enable him to protect his lord. But it also said something about him it enhanced an image he might be trying to project to those around him. As a result we see far greater variation in shape and design of blades than that seen in long swords.

We then add to that mix older blades, long swords and pole arms that have been modified to be carried as a wakizashi. We need to consider whether this was because the blade was a much loved heirloom or the owner was attempting to save money by recycling. I hope that the four examples here show some of these aspects.

starting at the top:

- A large Katakiriba-zukuri wakizashi with a steep ioiri mune by Dewa (no) daijo Fujiwara Kunimichi. This is a substantial piece made to impress. Made in the middle of the 17th century it is an in your face statement. The blade is large and heavy the horimono elaborate.

 

- An O-suriage blade attributed to ko-Enju and dating from the mid to late Kamakura. As Kirill mentioned it has an O-maru boshi which is a strong kantei point which distinguishes Enju from Rai work. If the boshi on this was ko-maru I think it would have papered to Rai Kunimitsu. Its is a beautiful blade. I would have loved to have seen it in it's original form.

 

- The tihrid is a naginata-Naoshi It has a juyo attribution to the earlty Shikkake School and dated to the early Nambokucho.  Again it is a beautifully crafted piece which has been shortenned with great skill. This would not have been an inexpensive thing to do which suggests it has been valued by previous custodians.

 

- The Final blade is by SHodai Tadayoshi. It is suriage but retains the njimei signature. Based on the style of the mei I believe it was made between 1612 and 1617. I am also guessing that it was shortenned to conform to the edict dictating the maximum lengths of sword which I think came in to force in 1638. In its' original form it would have been too long to comply.

[Alex A]

Kind of agree with Colin, slightly shortened then ok.

 

Quickly looked through sales pages and randomly pulled a wak with the shape that appeals to me. Obviously on later Edo blades there would be more to the blade but it gives an idea.

[Lewis B]

24 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Kind of agree with Colin, slightly shortened then ok.

 

Quickly looked through sales pages and randomly pulled a wak with the shape that appeals to me. Obviously on later Edo blades there would be more to the blade but it gives an idea.

How would this be rated? Late Kamakura and Juyo, attributed to Norishige. The nagasa is only 41cm so we can only wonder at how amazing this blade would have been originally. In my eye even if o-suriage there is an appeal to the sugata. 

[Alex A]

Its difficult judging a swords real shape from images, that must be said.

 

Often swords look overly curved in images, i guess for folks that shop online, got to take real note when it comes to checking out the dimensions.

 

The Kamakura sword above does not seem to have a great deal of sori, would be interesting to know what that measurement is.

 

I prefer elegance over robustness with waks.

[paulb]

Well Lewis it is a very big name. I think the shape is ok the proportion good and nothing offends. Like you I would have loved to see this when ubu. 

[Lewis B]

6 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Its difficult judging a swords real shape from images, that must be said.

 

Often swords look overly curved in images, i guess for folks that shop online, got to take real note when it comes to checking out the dimensions.

 

The Kamakura sword above does not seem to have a great deal of sori, would be interesting to know what that measurement is.

 

I prefer elegance over robustness with waks.

Sori is 0.7cm. Very small as it's massively shortened. Possibly half its original length. 

[Alex A]

Thanks Lewis, i kind of suspected small sori.

[Michaelr]

If I had to choose from the picture, for me it would definitely be #3. If I had the option to look at them in hand I might make a different pick. Maybe not though, I really like #3

  MikeR

[Jacques D.]

In my humble opinion, if we're going to talk about the sugata of wakizashis, we need to base ourselves on ubu blades, not suriage blades. That said, since the beginning of shinogo zukuri wakizashi, the sugata of wakizashi has been basically the same as that of katanas.

[GeorgeLuucas]

I’d like to throw out my biased opinion here - in defense of suriage wakizashi. 
 

Suriage is an important part of Nihonto history, and naturally many wakizashi have been shortened.

 

Obviously ubu anything is ideal! Y’all have a point when talking about strictly shape/form… But when talking about and comparing wakizashi, especially anything koto, suriage is likely going to be on the table. 
 

Simply put: I propose that they at least belong in the conversation. 
 

Cheers,

-Sam 

[Matsunoki]

I’m getting confused, nothing new there.

Are we comparing blades that were actually made as Wakizashi ie mostly ubu Shinto onwards

or

are we putting anything that  has a wakizashi Nagasa into the debate thus bringing anything suriage into the comparison which to me does not seem logical. These suriage blades are not per se wakizashi and thus can only exhibit the remnant sugata of their former lives. 
 

[Brian]

Yeah, but bear in mind the original idea of the thread. It's not to kantei as to maker, age etc. It's: Given seeing these on a table, as they are, what would you pick and be attracted to. It's an important thing, as at a sword show you don't have time to hit the books or start studying. You need to see what appeals to you. That means looking past the suriage, and using your gut feel. Perfectly legit exercise, since the swords on the table aren't always going to be ubu and in polish. This is what you will see more often than not, and you need to see what appeals to you and what is worth looking at closer before the guy next to you makes his choice.
Guys who go to the shows will confirm....you have a room full of hundreds of swords, and if you are buying, you don't have time to spend 20 mins examining each one. You need to decide fast what appeals to you, and only once you start looking at it closer can you decide if it still appeals.

[GeorgeLuucas]

My understanding was that we were talking broadly about swords with wakizashi nagasa. 
 

More of a hypothetical scenario of swords you might find on a table / available for sale. 

 

All the best,

-Sam 
 

 

Edited August 10 by GeorgeLuucas
Brian beat me to it

[Matsunoki]

OK, we are not comparing Wakizashi but we are comparing swords of Wakizashi Nagasa. I’ll shut up now and for what it’s worth my preferences in descending order would be….

1

3

2

4

….but I’m truly shocked that I’ve said something that Jacques agrees with🙂

[paulb]

To pick up on Brian's point and clarify the original intent. What I was attempting to establish, initially for myself but then for a broader group was what was the feature that made me want to look more. Or what was it that first attracted me to a piece and made me think it was worth closer investigation.

This was not/ is not an academic exercise nor is it a kantei it is simply an attempt to make us (me) stop and think and try and identify why something does or does not appeal.

From my own point of view I found things to like in all of the examples shown, which is why all but one of them have at one time or another been part of my collection. I love4d the fine lines of both the Enju blade and the Tadayoshi and thought the Shikkake was magnificent. The Kunimichi is incredibly powerful when seen in hand and a great example of the smith's craft.

So no right or wrong and not an academic study just what attracts you on a first date.

 

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

 

….but I’m truly shocked that I’ve said something that Jacques agrees with🙂

Go buy a lottery ticket.

[Robert S]

For me #4 comes closest, but neither the taper nor the kissaki are quite to my taste.  More taper and a longer, more elegant kissaki is what rings with me.

[GeorgeLuucas]

Doing some sorting today and oiling. Decided to compare two of my wakizashi side by side. One is unpapered suriage, the other is ubu and papered. Both mumei. Very different form. 
 

Just thought I’d share to a thread I enjoyed!