Help wanted on weird Learning Tsuba number 5.

[Spartancrest]

7 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

But I wonder who came up with this idea of manufacture - it is pure assumption

Museums do this all the time - most people would have no clue what the facts are. I guess they have to put down what the donor tells them, it becomes a trail of "Chinese whispers" when it goes further back in time.

I guess the next generation can look forward to having all sorts of misinformation thrown at them from AI - and who will know the difference?

[Alex A]

Aye. pure nonsense.

 

Junk with sparkles.

[Shugyosha]

Paris,

At risk of offending yours and Dan's sensibilities I'll offer an opinion on "learning" tsuba, so, rather than buying cheap, generic tsuba in awful condition, why not take a different approach?

 

1. Work out whether you currently prefer iron or soft metal tsuba;

2. Find a school(s) or artist(s) working in this material who's work you like;

3. Find authenticated examples of that work on line;

4. Put together a catalogue raisonne of their work and try to determine the characteristics that have lead the work to be attributed to that artist or school;

5. Should you wish to do so, seek out the best example of that work that you can find and buy it and then repeat the above process with another school or artist.

 

By adopting a similar approach, you can still collect what you like, but you will know why you like it and will then have had the learning experience that you are looking for and without spending the money on tsuba that you won't like once your taste develops, which it will.

 

The tsuba at the top of the thread has little or no virtue as an item to learn from because it has practically no characteristics that are capable of distinguishing it from thousands of other generic tsuba. Dale has kindly described some of the features of your tsuba, but you could have got that information from a book (sorry Dale, I'm not criticising what you offered) and lots of other information besides that would be useful to you in respect of other tsuba or fittings.

 

Alternatively, you can continue as you have been but you won't be learning anything from the tsuba you buy and there will be little that anyone on here can say about them that will make you better informed. Apologies if you think that's harsh but there are reasons why swords get appraised to broad categories such as "Bungo Takeda" - because even in excellent condition they have no charactaristics that make them stand out even for shinsa panels that see and handle thousands of swords. With fittings it's the same if not more so.

 

Just an opinion, and not exactly my own either: ones like it feature in many articles on what or how to collect written by people who have been through the stage of just buying stuff because it's there and who are trying to pass on knowledge that will allow newbies to get ahead of the game. But that requires tough love sometimes.

[Jake6500]

20 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Paris,

At risk of offending yours and Dan's sensibilities I'll offer an opinion on "learning" tsuba, so, rather than buying cheap, generic tsuba in awful condition, why not take a different approach?

 

1. Work out whether you currently prefer iron or soft metal tsuba;

2. Find a school(s) or artist(s) working in this material who's work you like;

3. Find authenticated examples of that work on line;

4. Put together a catalogue raisonne of their work and try to determine the characteristics that have lead the work to be attributed to that artist or school;

5. Should you wish to do so, seek out the best example of that work that you can find and buy it and then repeat the above process with another school or artist.

 

By adopting a similar approach, you can still collect what you like, but you will know why you like it and will then have had the learning experience that you are looking for and without spending the money on tsuba that you won't like once your taste develops, which it will.

 

The tsuba at the top of the thread has little or no virtue as an item to learn from because it has practically no characteristics that are capable of distinguishing it from thousands of other generic tsuba. Dale has kindly described some of the features of your tsuba, but you could have got that information from a book (sorry Dale, I'm not criticising what you offered) and lots of other information besides that would be useful to you in respect of other tsuba or fittings.

 

Alternatively, you can continue as you have been but you won't be learning anything from the tsuba you buy and there will be little that anyone on here can say about them that will make you better informed. Apologies if you think that's harsh but there are reasons why swords get appraised to broad categories such as "Bungo Takeda" - because even in excellent condition they have no charactaristics that make them stand out even for shinsa panels that see and handle thousands of swords. With fittings it's the same if not more so.

 

Just an opinion, and not exactly my own either: ones like it feature in many articles on what or how to collect written by people who have been through the stage of just buying stuff because it's there and who are trying to pass on knowledge that will allow newbies to get ahead of the game. But that requires tough love sometimes.

 

This is good advice.

 

You have not merely criticized the person but rather you have laid out an entire well reasoned alternative approach.

 

I am in the process of trying to do this myself having started with Kinai school tsuba and moving on now to other things.

 

You're also right about how taste develops over time and with newly acquired knowledge. 

 

There is a difference however between "tough love" or constructive criticism like yours and straight up tactless boorishness.

 

It is a fine line.

 

 

[Alex A]

15 minutes ago, Jake6500 said:

 

This is good advice.

 

You have not merely criticized the person but rather you have laid out an entire well reasoned alternative approach.

 

I am in the process of trying to do this myself having started with Kinai school tsuba and moving on now to other things.

 

You're also right about how taste develops over time and with newly acquired knowledge. 

 

There is a difference however between "tough love" or constructive criticism like yours and straight up tactless boorishness.

 

It is a fine line.

 

 

 

 

Ok, tell me where in this thread that things got upsetting for you?

 

Thought i was fair, gave an opinion.

 

Sorted it out with Dan, who in the end looked to agree.

 

Then some evidence was presented about the manufacture of this tsuba that turned out not to be true, as Jean pointed out.

 

Then Dan, after seemingly agreeing with me went all child like and spat his dummy out in another thread

[Alex A]

On 8/9/2024 at 11:09 PM, Dan tsuba said:

Alex A, my friend,

 

Thanks!  You are correct!  Maybe time for me to kick back, relax and smell the coffee!

 

Onward my friend!

 

 

SEE HERE~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dan tsuba]

Well Alex A.,

The other forum was locked so my responses to you are limited.

I can't believe that the Administrator would let you get away with your bad language on that thread.

I guess he lets his Gold Tier members get away with a lot!

 

Let see what he says to me calling you a pussy!

Pussy!

 

Hey, what goes around comes around!

 

 

 

[Jake6500]

5 minutes ago, Alex A said:

 

 

Ok, tell me where in this thread that things got upsetting for you?

 

Thought i was fair, gave an opinion.

 

Sorted it out with Dan, who in the end looked to agree.

 

Then some evidence was presented about the manufacture of this tsuba that turned out not to be true, as Jean pointed out.

 

Then Dan, after seemingly agreeing with me went all child like and spat his dummy out in another thread

 

Let's not re-litigate the entire conversation from scratch. 

 

I don't doubt your intention was to help and I also don't deny the importance of understanding financial value.

 

I will just say that your feedback of what not to do lacked a constructive element that is clearly present in Johns post.

 

Sometimes it's also about how you say something. Even if the advice you're giving is good, if it is framed in deficit language it's unlikely to lead to positive outcomes.

[Brian]

Not at all happy with the language. Alex, consider this an official warning. I'm running around hectically today, so haven't enough time to start editing posts and explaining.
Disappointed in how this degraded, but it's to be expected when people argue online.
Btw, all the advice in the world on how to collect won't help when there are collectors who just like age and the "samurai romanticism" and don't care about quality or art.
It's fine to collect what you like. But bear in mind the focus of this group, and what we strive for. That isn't going to change

[Matsunoki]

42 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Let see what he says to me calling you a pussy!

Pussy!

 

Hey, what goes around comes around!

 

Do you have any idea how childish that sounds?, and you are the first person I’ve seen on this forum telling someone you’d put him “flat on his back”. Reminds me of the school playground. 

We don’t need crap like that  on the Forum.

[Spartancrest]

2 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

We don’t need crap like that  on the Forum.

But we hear it none the less from all sides.

 

Totally off topic but what happens when a $20 tsuba turns out to be a lost treasure?  What basic economics should have taught you all, is that what something costs is not in anyway related to what it is actually worth!

[Hey, but lets just dismiss anything under what . . . $1,000 ? - total BS].

[Shugyosha]

Dale,

The answer is because, whilst it can happen, it doesn’t happen often and it generally happens to people who know what they’re looking at. 
 

 

 

[Jake6500]

24 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Do you have any idea how childish that sounds?, and you are the first person I’ve seen on this forum telling someone you’d put him “flat on his back”. Reminds me of the school playground. 

We don’t need crap like that  on the Forum.

 

I agree with this but I think it is applicable in both directions here.

[Matsunoki]

Not looking for a fight (don’t want to end up on my back) but I do think that all the advice re values, saleability, quality  etc etc was given with the best interest of the OP at heart. 
OK it got a bit off track and heated but let’s remember the intention was always very obviously to help and guide someone and save them making possible “mistakes”. At least the OP has a better idea of what he is buying. If he choses to continue down the same path that’s up to him but at least he is armed with a degree of harsh reality. 

Hell I’d have welcomed that 40 years ago!

[1kinko]

I seem to remember one of the current participants was also the protagonist for cast iron tsuba who wouldn't listen to reason and was one if the reasons Ford dropped out of commenting on tosogu. Would any of the current commenters be supporting cast iron swords or acid etched swords or corroded swords?  Beauty may be in the eye if the beholder, but there are limits. Call a spade a spade and move on.

[Alex A]

Ok, i was wrong with the language.

 

Just sick and tired of pandering to folks that talk nonsense.

 

The world seems full of soft people at the moment that don't like truth.

 

Forums have changed, folks are too touchy.

 

If folks want to buy crap. then its their business, il stay out of it in future.

 

No worries.

[Dan tsuba]

Alex A.

 

You stated "Ok, i was wrong with the language."

 

Thank you my friend!  I guess things got a little heated!

 

Now, let's just move forward.

[Alex A]

No Dan, sorry

 

Going to block you and anyone else i feel is over sensitive 

 

Like Jake above.

 

Want to talk to real people that want to learn, not folks that start crying at reality

 

Ps, tsuba isnt my strong point but know enough to know junk when i see it.

[Dan tsuba]

Oh well Alex,

 

Thanks for the explanation.  

 

You do what you think you need to do, like what you stated above-

"Going to block you and anyone else i feel is over sensitive" 

 

And I will do what I think I need to do.

 

So, there you have it my friend.

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Is this a thread about rust-damaged TSUBA? 

[Dan tsuba]

My friend, Jean.

 

Patience!

 

If you have kept up on what is occurring on this forum, I am certain that eventually this thread will get back on track!

 

Onward!

[Spartancrest]

Pollock or Da Vinci?  

    same same      whatever floats your boat. 

 

[we can move on to "Minimalism" vs "Surrealism" in the next lesson ]

[Okan]

Was once in this box..now all around the world..

[Spartancrest]

54 minutes ago, Okan said:

Was once in this box..now all around the world..

So it is all YOUR fault then!  

[Jake6500]

14 hours ago, Alex A said:

No Dan, sorry

 

Going to block you and anyone else i feel is over sensitive 

 

Like Jake above.

 

Want to talk to real people that want to learn, not folks that start crying at reality

 

Ps, tsuba isnt my strong point but know enough to know junk when i see it.

 

Idk Alex, you seem to be more sensitive than me lol 

[Jake6500]

8 hours ago, Okan said:

Was once in this box..now all around the world..

So Okan, were these tsuba purchased as a single lot? A couple interesting shapes in there.

[Alex A]

No Jake, just seen too many snowflakes over the years and its become worse lately.

 

In some cases it becomes trolling, as its so pathetic.

 

The educated here become tired of it, and leave, as mentioned earlier.

 

Going to block Dan now, as had enough of his nonsense.

 

And you too, as i didn't care for your tone. Assisted many folks on here over the years and like i said, it can be a thankless task. If you stay here long enough you will find that out and may have a different view on things.

 

Please don't comment further, or on any more of my comments in the future,

 

Should i make any, that is.

[Jake6500]

4 minutes ago, Alex A said:

No Jake, just seen too many snowflakes over the years and its become worse lately.

 

In some cases it becomes trolling, as its so pathetic.

 

The educated here become tired of it, and leave, as mentioned earlier.

 

Going to block Dan now, as had enough of his nonsense.

 

And you too, as i didn't care for your tone.

 

Please don't comment further, or on any more of my comments in the future,

You of all people relinquished any right to be tone policing Alex, but you do you.

[Alex A]

Ok, i snapped, but wont apologize.

 

Bye Jake.

[Kantaro]

Gentlemen please,

 

It is my topic and I never had any problems with ANY opignions or remarks on my Tsuba.

On the contrary I appreciate and am thankfull for all of them since I am here to learn.

I am a bit puzzled how a rusted shipwreck Tsuba can heat up the emotions...

 

Kind regards from Belgium.

 

Pâris.