Help wanted on weird Learning Tsuba number 5.

[Kantaro]

Hello,

 

Learning Tsuba number 5 was obtained in Belgium and comes from a shipwreck and has heavy water damage...

 

Weird for me are the deep cutlines on the Tsuba who go all the way thru. 

They seem to make a symbol?

 

(73mm L 73mm W  4mm T / inches= 2.87 L x 2.87 L x 0.16 T)

 

(weight 108 gram)

 

Since I am a newbie and want to learn, I would be happy with all possible info!

 

(Period?/Age?/Design?/School?/Remarks?/Opignion?/And any value?)

 

(The Tsuba is mine and there is no sale or auction going on)

 

Kind regards and thanks for sharing!

[Kantaro]

[ROKUJURO]

Paris,

I wonder why you bought this TSUBA and what you want to learn from it. It may have a value as curio or paperweight, but other than that?

It is not 'water damage' but massive corrosion what we see, and fire might have helped that.

The cuts remind me of the ITO school, but there is not enough left of the TSUBA to guess the design or symbolism.

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Paris!

 

Don't let it get to you that someone says "it may have value as a curio or paperweight"!

 

I like your tsuba.  It is my kind of tsuba.  It is old, rusted, and probably would have a great story to tell!

 

I also like the copper sekigane filler in the nakago-ana (which means it was probably mounted more than once).

 

There is also a copper filler in one of the hitsu to prevent the kokgai or kozuka from rubbing against the iron.  

 

I consider that a custom addition to the tsuba!

 

Hey, you collect what you enjoy!  

 

 

[1kinko]

Looks like many posted here- like a lump of iron left in the driveway for several months.

[Matsunoki]

2 hours ago, Kantaro said:

and comes from a shipwreck

Paris, hello

For some reason I’m always fascinated by shipwreck recoveries. Ok it’s mostly porcelain or cannons etc but I’ve never encountered shipwreck tsuba. Any record of the ship or other relevant info….where, when etc? Just interested.

[Alex A]

Ship wreck tsuba story here Colin

ship – Tsuba Kansho

[Alex A]

Just to add to the OP.

 

No expert but its Edo.

 

Value, maybe $20 to $30, on a good day. 

 

Its heavily corroded, as mentioned. I'm surprised the cutlines go all the way through. To me it looks like someone attempted to cut a design but never finished it.

 

It appears it last sat on a Wakizashi, due to small nakago-ana.

 

I'm sure your next tsuba will be better, we all start somewhere.

 

Folks can be picky about tsuba as they are numerous and decent tsuba can be picked up relatively cheap.

 

Id be interested to hear about the shipwreck too, as that would add some appeal, if genuine and not a sales pitch.

 

Disagree with Dan. Dont put all your money into buying tsuba like this, nothing much to learn and no enjoyment to ownership. It doesn't have a story to tell, as its a piece of iron without provenance and known history.

 

I do get why folks will put up with some rusty relics. An example could be a cannon ball from the Mary Rose, bought directly from the salvage team. If you know what I'm saying.

 

Being honest, welcome to the club

[Dan tsuba]

Paris my friend, 

 

Well here we go again!

 

You were told that "I wonder why you bought this TSUBA and what you want to learn from it. It may have a value as curio or paperweight, but other than that?"

 

Also "Value, maybe $20 to $30, on a good day." 

 

And "Dont put all your money into buying tsuba like this, nothing much to learn and no enjoyment to ownership. It doesn't have a story to tell, as its a piece of iron without provenance and known history."

 

My opinion, don't let others rain on your parade!

 

If you enjoy your tsuba (as I do!), then continue on your journey!

[Alex A]

Fair enough Dan.

 

Maybe you could explain why you enjoy these tsuba and spending money on them.

 

Might sway some of us.

 

 

[Matsunoki]

4 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

My opinion, don't let others rain on your parade!

 

It’s called learning. Sometimes sounds harsh but it’s sound advice and well intentioned. You should have seen some of my early stuff🙂. We all start from zero. The fun is journeying in the right direction. Train your eye….look at fine pieces ….sales, museums etc. Difficult to learn much from just studying low end. 
Look at Bonhams website, search “tsuba” (past lots) you’ll  see a range of qualities and their financial market values. It will open your eyes very quickly but might spoil some of the romanticism. 

[Alex A]

They don't need to be expensive either.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello my friend Alex A!

 

I already advised Paris how to perhaps search for tsuba that are not expensive ($50 to $100 U.S.) on another thread.

 

Whatever I have to say on my enjoyment on giving these old rusted tsuba a good home, will not sway anybody to do the same.

 

We all collect for different reasons,

 

Some collect only museum quality pieces that have papers, others collect expensive pieces with no papers, others collect pieces based on thier motif,  others collect pieces based on the artisan or maker, others collect pieces based on the school, others collect pieces for a varying amount of different reasons.

 

Who am I to say that what  Paris wants to collect is not of value in an educational sense or a learning expierence to him.

 

Maybe he enjoys collecting tsuba that were recovered from shipwrecks?  

 

That would be a new and interesting area of study.

 

We all find our own way in this fantastic world of tsuba collecting!  

 

Let Paris find his own way on his great journey into this tsuba world.

 

He knows he has all the expertise on this great forum available to him.

.

 

[Alex A]

Just helping from a financial point of view.

 

As said before.

 

Don't see point in buying 5 or so crappy tsuba that add up to $400 (with shipping) when that could get you 2 decent tsuba that you can actually re-sell

 

If you like to throw your money away slowly but surely, that's your business.

 

Let the OP make his own mind up, as you point out.

[Dan tsuba]

Not all collectors are in this hobby to re-sell their pieces!

 

I know that may be difficult to understand for some.

 

And you are correct.  If I want to throw my money away slowly but surely, then that is my business-not yours!

 

Let's not get into a squabble about this.

 

I have had my share of negativity on this forum before!

 

Onward my friend!

[Alex A]

Ok Dan, no worries

[Okan]

@Dan tsuba, I think you are overreacting. Paris probably didn't know what he bought, so I agree with @ROKUJURO and @Alex A. He mentions that he is learning, but these are not learning pieces. There’s no need to misguide him. Let him learn, and only then can he decide if he wants to collect rusted shipwreck pieces or Goto. 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Oh well,

 

Here we go again!

 

Okan, I never misguided Paris.

 

Read my previous post where I stated-

 

"I already advised Paris how to perhaps search for tsuba that are not expensive ($50 to $100 U.S.) on another thread."

 

That is the problem with a forum thread.  Everyone just reads the last post and doesn't read the entire thread.

 

"Overreacting and misguiding" as you stated.

 

Those words were uncalled for, my friend.

 

But maybe I am ready for further conflict after all the stuff I put up with on my "Tsuba casting molds?" thread!

 

Hey, have you even read that thread?  That will give you some insight into quite a lot of negativity that I endured on this forum!

 

Read it and get back to me!

 

Stating untrue and negative words (as you did) just kind of irritates me!

 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Chill out Dan

 

Folks make points

 

Horses for courses

[Dan tsuba]

Alex A, my friend,

 

Thanks!  You are correct!  Maybe time for me to kick back, relax and smell the coffee!

 

Onward my friend!

[Spartancrest]

Well back to the piece at hand - we are supposed to be here to help, not criticise peoples choices. [If any member can say with certainty that they never bought a low grade tsuba in their past then they either have too much money or are losing their memory  JMHO.]

 

Looking at the design [and it still has one] I would say the ito thread cuts are following a "Kakine" formula much like this pattern but obviously thinner lines.

 

 

The KAKINE (垣根) design is much pared back but that is what I think it means, see this image borrowed from Glen Cordner's post Jan 21  2022   https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/38322-meaning-of-beam-on-tosogu/page/2/

 

  A kakine motif has four angled sticks that form a box [or rhombus] with overhanging tips, Paris' example does not have the full box shape simply because a bit less than half the design would be under the seppa and not seen in any case. [Kakine signifies a sacred place or a water well]

 

Condition wise compare this one:

From the D.Z. Norton collection now in the Cleveland museum of Art  - yes I am sure you could buy it from them for $20  [good luck with that!]

Edited August 10 by Spartancrest
More history

[PNSSHOGUN]

This Tsuba may be interesting if more is known about the ship and circumstances of the sinking and recovery. If that information doesn't exist, then striving to own such objects becomes very questionable. 

[Jesta]

1 hour ago, Spartancrest said:

Well back to the piece at hand - we are supposed to be here to help, not criticise peoples choices. [If any member can say with certainty that they never bought a low grade tsuba in their past then they either have too much money or are losing their memory  JMHO.]

 

Looking at the design [and it still has one] I would say the ito thread cuts are following a "Kakine" formula much like this pattern but obviously thinner lines.

(thanks Dale, for a really interesting take on this)

I am really interested in why the design would be cut through the tsuba, rather than carved onto the faces. Are there other examples you can think of where this has happened? It strikes me that this would have been a hard thing to do, when compared to carving the design. That implies (if I am right) that the cutting through the metal was worth the time taken… 

 

[Spartancrest]

29 minutes ago, Jesta said:

I am really interested in why the design would be cut through the tsuba, rather than carved onto the faces. Are there other examples you can think of where this has happened?

Hundreds of examples - the Ito thread cutting technique was very popular, probably because it was so time consuming to do. It also had the advantage of decorating both sides at the one time.

           

 

The last example is what I call a cheat because the fine line starts at a larger opening than the thickness of the thread cut. Just think how small the hole had to be to start the cutting process and how many holes had to be drilled to make up some of the patterns. A good description is given by W. GOWLAND in 1915.

 

 

METALS AND METAL- WORKING
IN OLD Japan.  by  W. GOWLAND.
REPRINTED FROM
THE TRANSACTIONS OF
THE Japan SOCIETY
OF LONDON, Vol. XIII
Tuesday, March 2, 1915,

    "From the twelfth to the fourteenth century the iron guard is still without ornament, except simple geometric perforations. From the sixteenth century onwards, this simple ornament gave place to intricate pierced patterns and richly engraved and inlaid designs. Many of these iron guards, especially of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, are marvels of skill and patient work. Forms of the greatest delicacy, often almost microscopic in their details, others with bold contours and sweeping curves worthy of the artist's brush, are alike carved with as much accuracy and freedom as if the material was plastic clay rather than solid iron. In some, the pierced cuts are so fine that they do not exceed 1/250 of an inch in width, and their sides are perfectly parallel. These were produced by a very laborious method of procedure. 
A minute hole was first drilled in the iron with a fine steel wire moistened with oil and powdered garnets or siliceous rock; the hole was then elongated into a slit by means of another fine steel wire used as a saw, also moistened with oil and the above powder. These cuts were further continued with flat wires, and were then reduced to the extreme degree of fineness required by hammering both sides of the metal until they were sufficiently closed. The sides of the cuts were kept parallel by rubbing them from time to time with flat wires of steel and grinding-powder."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kantaro]

I do like your scientific approach Dale.

 

 

Much appreciated and thanks for the sharing.

 

Kind regards from Belgium.

[Jesta]

Thanks, Dale. I hadn’t associated the cuts in the OP’s tsuba with this technique. I see what you mean now. I was working under the false impression that they had been hammered through, possibly because the corrosion had made the tops of the cut wider. 

Some of those very fine lines must have taken a serious amount of time and precision to get right. I remain hugely impressed with the effort put into creating tsuba. 

[Alex A]

3 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Well back to the piece at hand - we are supposed to be here to help, not criticise peoples choices. [If any member can say with certainty that they never bought a low grade tsuba in their past then they either have too much money or are losing their memory  JMHO.]

 

Looking at the design [and it still has one] I would say the ito thread cuts are following a "Kakine" formula much like this pattern but obviously thinner lines.

 

 

The KAKINE (垣根) design is much pared back but that is what I think it means, see this image borrowed from Glen Cordner's post Jan 21  2022   https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/38322-meaning-of-beam-on-tosogu/page/2/

 

  A kakine motif has four angled sticks that form a box [or rhombus] with overhanging tips, Paris' example does not have the full box shape simply because a bit less than half the design would be under the seppa and not seen in any case. [Kakine signifies a sacred place or a water well]

 

Condition wise compare this one:

From the D.Z. Norton collection now in the Cleveland museum of Art  - yes I am sure you could buy it from them for $20  [good luck with that!]

 

 

I can say with certainty ive never bought a crappy tsuba, though one arrived with a sword i bought.

 

Didn't receive one comment here, i later found out that it was late Edo and cut from sheet steel. Did i get upset, no, all part of learning and to be honest, ive never been the type to care what others think. I just learned that the tsuba had no real appeal, to me or anyone else.

 

The "Norton" tsuba you show us in the collection above, picture is unclear and no information as to its "cookie" type corroded appearance?. Is this a shipwreck tsuba?, if so, with evidence then as i mentioned above i would understand the purchase. That would only be from an historical event perspective. I have a few musket balls here that came from a shipwreck, nothing special other than that fact and they were bought directly from the the salvage team.

 

Just because a tsuba sits in a "Norton" collection does not automatically make them appealing or saleable, not to me.

 

To me, its just an ugly looking corroded tsuba and yes, i wouldn't actually pay any money to own it, not even $20, unless there was evidence of it coming from a shipwreck and that would only be the appeal, even then id struggle. Thats my point of view. If someone wants to pay good money for such a tsuba then that's their business. Without evidence, then its a tsuba that will likely sit around in the sales section for an eternity.

 

Did once buy a tsuba in poor condition, it had seen some corrosion (nowhere near that extent above) and someone had wire brushed it clean. The thing is though, it was kind of a rare Muromachi tsuba with no hitsu-ana. Not the type of tsuba that can commonly be bought in fine condition for a modest price. That re-patinated and looked decent. There was something special about it, had an appeal.

 

As said, horses for courses. Not here to bash folks purchases but as always, if you put items on a public forum then expect a varied response as we all like and appreciate different items in obviously different states of preservation and with differing amounts of provenance.

 

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Just to give some background to that "corroded" tsuba.

 

SWORD GUARDS IN THE MUSEUM 
THE D. Z. NORTON COLLECTION

The Bulletin of the Cleveland Museum of Art, Vol. 7, No. 4 (Apr., 1920), 
Author: J. A. M.  pp. 45-51 

"3. Solid iron guard with corroded surface. Two pieces of metal of different degrees of hardness were hammered together, and after having been folded and flattened out a sufficient number of times a round guard was cut out and hammered to the right thickness. It was then submitted to an acid bath. The softer metal naturally disintegrated faster than the harder under the action of the acid with the result that an inimitable surface was obtained, which when carefully colored and finished finally produced a guard of admirable texture. It takes on an ancient appearance without apparent imitation; therefore, it frankly appeals to one's artistic imagination. Some process was employed to soften the lines of the corrosion but so skillfully handled that no trace of it is detectable." 

 

The technique is reasonably common and intentional not an accident, but often not taken to such extremes.  I agree that the type does not appeal to everyone [me included] but as you say horses for courses and it obviously appealed enough to end up in a museum collection. Which in itself is not saying much as like most museum collections they often include cast and substandard pieces. [yes even the very highest regarded museums! - just go and LOOK]

 

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Just because a tsuba sits in a "Norton" collection does not automatically make them appealing or saleable, not to me.

I have no doubt this is true and you are quite correct in feeling this way, but some people crave the provenance of a piece even over the true value - why the previous ownership of an object makes the slightest difference eludes me but somehow it has become an important sales feature. Have you noticed the number of guards at auction being displayed next to a book image of what purports to be the same guard - but close up it isn't? 

[Alex A]

Dale, appreciate the info.

 

Ok, so the tsuba in the Norton has an unusual and intentional corroded surface, i get that.

 

Obviously not for everyone, as mentioned. Would love to see that tsuba in hand to see what the attraction is and how it would differ from a tsuba that has naturally corroded.

 

I find the topic of Provenance very interesting. Its a slightly dodgy sales gimmick if that's the case, perhaps just the comparison. I have not seen enough tsuba sales to notice. What i have noticed is that if folks list a tsuba that is genuinely listed in a publication then they fly of the shelf fast. Must admit, when i see something as such listed then my interest is far greater. 

 

Though obviously the item has to be of interest anyways, not just interesting due to the fact it is published.

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

10 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

....."3. Solid iron guard with corroded surface. Two pieces of metal of different degrees of hardness were hammered together, and after having been folded and flattened out a sufficient number of times a round guard was cut out and hammered to the right thickness. It was then submitted to an acid bath. The softer metal naturally disintegrated faster than the harder under the action of the acid with the result that an inimitable surface was obtained, which when carefully colored and finished finally produced a guard of admirable texture. It takes on an ancient appearance without apparent imitation; therefore, it frankly appeals to one's artistic imagination. Some process was employed to soften the lines of the corrosion but so skillfully handled that no trace of it is detectable." ....

Thank you Dale,

for the link. But I wonder who came up with this idea of manufacture - it is pure assumption, and it is partly wrong. This happens when art experts or historians try to be metallurgical expert as well.

In reality, the composition of (potentially) "hard" and "soft" steels is based on their respective alloys, and as the traditional iron making process (TATARA) in Japan only produces relatively pure carbon steel with differing contents of C, there is not much choice of material. 

In the folding and fire-welding process, you have to be aware of carbon migration. In case the layers become thin, the carbon diffuses from layers of high carbon content to those of lower content. While this is welcome and used intentionally in sword forging, in cases of the above 'Norton' TSUBA as well as in steel MOKUME TSUBA you have to take care that homogenization is avoided.

The acid etching process is wrongly descibed - it is "naturally" just the other way round: The acid attacks the steel with higher carbon content more or faster than the low-carbon iron.

In my personal aesthetic view, such an artificially 'aged" looking surface shows the TSUBA artist's intention and can be accepted (or rejected) as a case of individual taste. Heavy corrosion, on the other side, caused accidentally (salt-water attack, fire, or neglect) which destroyed the original look, feel, design and symbolism of a TSUBA, does in my opinion not result in a desirable TSUBA.

A low price for a damaged art item alone should, at least in my eyes, not be a criterium for a purchase, but I admit there obviously exist other philosophies.

If we look at collectiong Japanese art in general, I think it is the beauty of the items, their artistic quality and their wonderful state of preservation which attract us. Looking at a 500 year old blade in good polish is a pleasure, and this applies to other art objects in the same way. Most metals used in TOSOGU have been treated with a patination process, TSUBA included. This served two purposes: Something looking "new" (as in just made) does not appeal to the Japanese taste, instead they like a slightly used look from careful and respectful use by considerate owners. The other effect is that patination "freezes" the looks and condition (by protecting from corrosion) in a good way to preserve what the artist wanted it to look.  

This is what I am interested in.