Kantaro Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 Hello, I obtained my fourth learning Tsuba from Japan. (56mm L 60mm W 3mm T / inches= 2.20 L x 2.36 L x 0.12 T) (weight 50 gram) Since I am a newbie and want to learn, I would be happy with all possible info! (Is it a fake?/Period?/Age?/Design?/School?/Remarks?/Opignion?/And value?) (I do hope it is a Tachi otherwise I will have to edit my pictures... ) Ok edited (The Tsuba is mine and there is no sale or auction going on) Kind regards and thanks for sharing! And remember, "A Tsuba a day keeps the doctor away!" Quote
Geraint Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 Dear Paris. When did you see a tachi with kozuka and kogai? All the best. Quote
Kantaro Posted August 6 Author Report Posted August 6 https://nihonto.com....th-nthk-certificate/ https://collections.mfa.org/objects/11430 https://japaneseswor...25/tachi-tsuba-1800s https://stcroixblade...rd-kodogu-collectio/ https://tsubakansho.com/tag/tachi/ http://www.ricecrack...tachi_kiyomitsu.html The "originals" (Tachi tsuba) indeed I agree Geraint but I suppose many have been altered to be used on other swords? But indeed that is a long shot I suppose. I will edit my pics of this Tsuba and turn them up before Jean sees it. Old Tachi Tsuba normaly have no kozuka and kogai. I read the interesting question hereunder. Kind regards, Paris 1 Quote
Dan tsuba Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 Hello Kantaro (Paris)! And welcome to this forum and the wonderful world of tsuba collecting! So, some time ago I started a thread that deals with what to look for when you are beginning to collect tsuba. That thread can be found here- Also, there is a Grand Master on this forum known as Spartancrest. I believe he has written several books on tsuba and what to look for when you start collecting them. Perhaps you can send him a Personal Mail (PM) from this forum? Quote
Kantaro Posted August 6 Author Report Posted August 6 Thanks Dan, I read it and it was very interesting! Kind regards. 1 Quote
Kantaro Posted August 6 Author Report Posted August 6 Indeed Dale has shared and helped me already a few times. Much appreciated it. Kind regards 1 Quote
Geraint Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 Dear Paris. You may have somewhat missed the point. Finding tsuba labelled as tachi tsuba is not hard but for various reasons these descriptions are not always accurate. Example 1 Clearly the design works the way it is displayed, ie for a katana, so more properly described as tachi shaped. Example 2 Never described as a tachi tsuba, and for good reason. The hitsu ana are clearly original to the design so this would be for a handachi koshirae. Example 3 A recent tsuba of tachi form, most likely for handachi koshirae. Once again more properly described as tachi shaped, Example 4 The most interesting because it is made by tachikanagushi and the question is was it made as it is now or were the ryo hitsu added at a later date. (This site is worth visiting often if you want to learn about tsuba.) Worth noting that tachikanagushi is a group of makers most of whose output comes from the Muromachi period. You may find this thread interesting. All the best. 1 1 Quote
Kantaro Posted August 6 Author Report Posted August 6 Correct Geraint, indeed I think I missed the point. But I learned a bit, thanks. I edited my pics up. Anyone thinks it is not a fake? Kind regards. Paris 1 Quote
Dan tsuba Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 Hey Paris! I don't think it is a fake! Although it has obviously been overcleaned. Those deep tagane-ato (punch marks) couldn't be done on a cast tsuba, so it is not cast. It does appear like someone tried to drill a hole by the kogai hitsu-ana (the more 3 leaf clover looking hole). Anyway, I would consider it a "keeper". But that is just me! I am receiving a tsuba today. If you are interested, maybe I can share with you what kind of tsuba I buy (rusted, in bad shape, not expensive, not papered, and probably something that many collectors of tsuba wouldn't even consider worth buying !). Although I do not have a tsuba with the motif of the tsuba I bought in my collection! But hey, that is my fun in collecting tsuba! 1 Quote
Dan tsuba Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 Hello Paris! So, below are pictures of the tsuba I just received. Let me analyze the piece. 1. The description stated Edo period, although I think it could be older? 2. It is a hand forged piece with a hand carved motif. 3. Of course it is seriously rusted, but there are no cracks in the motif or the hitsu. 4. It is 77mm in diameter (which is fairly large) so it was probably used on a katana and not a wakizashi. 5. The weight of the piece is 90 grams. Which is a correct weight for a hand forged iron tsuba with this motif. 6. The tagane-ato punch marks are deep and well done. Perhaps it was used on more than one sword? 7. I don’t have a motif of this type in my collection. So, would other tsuba collectors (that collect better and more expensive tsuba) just more than likely throw this piece in the garbage? Probably! But hey, that is not me! I give these type of tsuba a good home! Total cost of the piece (including shipping from Japan) $44.00 U.S. ! Hey, how could I pass on that! Also, sometimes (infrequently) I luck out on my tsuba purchases! I have purchased tsuba for around $50 to $100 U.S. that I have seen listed for 5 to 10 times that amount (and sometimes more) for what I paid for it! If you know what you are looking at, I still feel there are deals to be had! 2 Quote
Okan Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 It is not fake. Are you sure you obtained it from Japan? 1 Quote
PhoenixDude Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 Am I the only one seeing the seams inside the nakago and hitsu ana? 1 Quote
Okan Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 13 minutes ago, PhoenixDude said: Am I the only one seeing the seams inside the nakago and hitsu ana? Hmm..ok brightness up..i thought it was shiny metal due to over cleaning..what is it, plaster or something? Quote
Dan tsuba Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 In the last picture that Paris posted of his tsuba, you will notice that the "gunk" is not only in the nakago-ana and hitsu but on the mimi as well. I don't believe that his tsuba is cast. Maybe it just needs a good cleaning in those areas? Who knows? Quote
Steves87 Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 This guard has likely been cut down from within a mimi-rim. I would bet @Spartancrest has an example of a non-cut down guard. 1 1 Quote
Dan tsuba Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 My friend Stephen, I bet you are right! Let's see what Spartencrest has to say about this! Quote
PhoenixDude Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 Why would there be a random shallow drill mark on it? Makes me think it was a quick and dirty way to remove a defect. Quote
Dan tsuba Posted August 6 Report Posted August 6 My friend PhoenixDude (Jay), I like your pictures and arrows on the tsuba! But what is it you are trying to show and explain? I am an old guy and can't figure this stuff out! Thanks! Quote
PhoenixDude Posted August 7 Report Posted August 7 Looks like casting seams where the two halves of a mold meet together. Like a line around the circumference of the ana halfway between the ura and omote. Quote
Dan tsuba Posted August 7 Report Posted August 7 Thanks Jay! Oh, now I see (said the blind man!) Once again (referring to my "Tsuba casting molds?" thread - oh no let's not bring that up again! -- ha, ha, ha, etc.) what needs to be done is non-invasive metallurgical testing on the tsuba. Otherwise, everything else is just opinions and a "best guess" by those that think they know (including me!)!! 1 Quote
Spartancrest Posted August 7 Report Posted August 7 4 hours ago, Steves87 said: This guard has likely been cut down from within a mimi-rim. I would bet @Spartancrest has an example of a non-cut down guard. I can do better than that - this guard was already discussed back in 2022 https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/40021-unusual-tanto-tsuba/ 6 2 Quote
Steves87 Posted August 7 Report Posted August 7 I thought it looked familiar! Dale is every bit the grandmaster when it comes to this stuff! Here is a screen shot of the likely similar original Tsuba style from Dale's linked thread (for ease of viewing) 2 1 Quote
Kantaro Posted August 7 Author Report Posted August 7 11 hours ago, Okan said: It is not fake. Are you sure you obtained it from Japan? Indeed Okan (edited) no, I pasted/copied from a former message and left "from Japan" in it, sorry about that. I obtained it this week in Belgium from a very friendly father who told me he was selling it for his son. It was hidden in a pile of Tsuba I bought from him which seemed perfect for me to learn from... I do hope the son knew that his father was selling them since I do not want to cause any trouble. Kind regards from Belgium. Quote
Kantaro Posted August 7 Author Report Posted August 7 I must say this is a fantastic learning Tsuba. Thanks Dale for the link of the "Suriage" Tsuba family. Very very interesting! It is a small Tsuba world. What puzzles me a bit is how this Tsuba became a "cast one" since the pictures of 2022? What I mean is if it is the same tsuba and if it was not cast in 2022 then it is not cast in 2024... Bad storage? I suppose the "dril mark" was just a mark that the tsuba was hold fixed when cutting off the rim. (I copy 2 pictures from the discussion of 2022 hereunder.) Kind regards from a rainy Belgium. Quote
Okan Posted August 7 Report Posted August 7 17 minutes ago, Kantaro said: I must say this is a fantastic learning Tsuba. Thanks Dale for the link of the "Suriage" Tsuba family. Very very interesting! It is a small Tsuba world. What puzzles me a bit is how this Tsuba became a "cast one" since the pictures of 2022? What I mean is if it is the same tsuba and if it was not cast in 2022 then it is not cast in 2024... Bad storage? I suppose the "dril mark" was just a mark that the tsuba was hold fixed when cutting off the rim. (I copy a picture from the discussion of 2022 hereunder.) Kind regards from a rainy Belgium. Yup, thats my hand in that picture. 2 Quote
Spartancrest Posted August 7 Report Posted August 7 Paris, personally I don't think the tsuba is cast[at least not in iron], the very fact that the rim was chiselled off would suggest it is not brittle cast iron. I don't know if it was ever worked out just what the metal it is made from is? We don't see any rust on it so is it iron/steel or is it a copper based alloy? If it is an alloy then yes it is likely cast at some point in the production and it would withstand the chisel cuts. Being cast in soft metal is a legitimate method of period production and does not mean it is fake. Could you run a magnet over the piece and see if it sticks? 1 Quote
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