Considering a first purchase

[Natichu]

Hello all, 

 

I apologize in advance for a bit of longer post, but was hoping to get some input on a potential first purchase. 

 

Relatively new member here mulling through the inevitable trials and tribulations of a first purchase. Have missed on a few pieces of interest, but trying not to rush things or to feel pressured to move. 

 

Budget is round about $5000 USD for a daito. I'm not looking to start an extensive collection, likely just a single daito, a wakizashi, and maybe a wakizashi (with the aim of potentially combining items 2 and 3 by focusing on naginata-naoshi wakizashi). 

 

For the daito, one of my primary concerns is length. As a martial artist, I train with iaito between 2.50 and 2.55 shaku in length, and am hoping to land on something near that neighbourhood. I appreciate this is relatively long, and so I'll likely need to have some flexibility there if I'm not able to go up in budget or willing to accept pieces of lower quality. 

 

My preference would be for a koto blade, or at latest Keicho shinto. I have a particular interest in some of Yamato offshoots such as the Uda school (mainline Yamato seems out of reach) as well as some of the southern wakimono school - particularly the Dotanuki and Takada schools. The draw with the latter option is in part the reputation the schools seem to have had for having a focus on producing good weapons first, with aesthetic considerations being a lesser consideration. 

 

While papered and zaimei would obviously be the best option, I have no problem with mumei and papered as that seems likely to give me the best bang for buck in terms of quality. 

 

I'm somewhat wary of buying online from Japan, but have been following a number of site closely, including Aoi and Touken Komachi. 

 

Which brings us to an option that has come up recently:

 

https://sword-auctio...genbthk-hozon-token/

 

Upsides - good width and thickness, very attractive shape, papered to a specific smith rather than the more generic Taira Takada/Bungo Takada/Fujiwara Takada (which I understand can function as more of a shinsa kantei bucket of nondescript blades, along with Uda and Echizen Seki). Aoi indicates this is the Muromachi generation Munekaga, rather than the later Shoho era smith (any thoughts there are welcome, however, as it's unclear from the Hozon origami which is meant). The shape and osuriage nature of the blade seem to me to make the earlier smith the one intended, but I'm very new to all of this. 

 

Downsides to my mind are it's short for my desires (2.40), and there are two areas noted as having some rust (in emails, described as "usu sabi") - the mune side as mentioned in the listing and then in the hamon itself (ura side, a little ways above the hamachi). Pictures sent from Aoi attached. 

 

My main questions to the group are whether this seems a reasonable purchase for a beginner, and whether the rust (which I assume is stable, but again feedback welcome) would be a deal breaker for most of you if you were looking in this price range. Any feedback on whether going online through Aoi should be something I avoid at this point in my collection career as well would be much appreciated. 

 

Again, my apologies for the long post, but any input welcome! Thank you all for the time if you've made it this far. 

[O koumori]

Difficult to say without the sword in-hand. The danger of this rust in the hamon is that you don't know how deep it goes, leading to the danger of a fukure, maybe now or  in the future. It is a weakened area, which you don't want in the hamon.

 

You mentioned iaido, as does the auction description in several places. Is this your intent for this blade?

 

Dan K

[Natichu]

45 minutes ago, O koumori said:

Difficult to say without the sword in-hand. The danger of this rust in the hamon is that you don't know how deep it goes, leading to the danger of a fukure, maybe now or  in the future. It is a weakened area, which you don't want in the hamon.

 

You mentioned iaido, as does the auction description in several places. Is this your intent for this blade?

 

Dan K

Thank you very much for the insight Dan. I don't intend to use the blade for training, but rather for appreciation - while I like the idea of having koshirae at some point, I'm also quite happy to have a blade solely in shirasaya so funds go to the blade itself. 

[oli]

75-77cm Nagasa from Shinto/Koto is hard to find, maybe Shinshinto or newer. If you like Yamato, you can also look for Monju, Mihara or Naminohara school.

[Natichu]

1 hour ago, oli said:

75-77cm Nagasa from Shinto/Koto is hard to find, maybe Shinshinto or newer. If you like Yamato, you can also look for Monju, Mihara or Naminohara school.

Thanks for the suggestions! Will start digging into options on those fronts as well. 

[Gerry]

"I'm not looking to start an extensive collection"

 

Famous last words. 

[Natichu]

1 hour ago, Gerry said:

"I'm not looking to start an extensive collection"

 

Famous last words. 

I find the best problems, complications, and troubles tend to be those you aren't looking for. So I figure may as well set myself up for success! 

 

All of which will be closely followed by "this is the last one, I swear!" 

[Oldman]

As a martial artist, I train with iaito between 2.50 and 2.55 shaku in length, and am hoping to land on something near that neighbourhood

 

I hope that by your comment about martial arts you don't mean that you intend to use an antique nihonto for iaido or other martial arts practise. Good luck in your search. This is indeed an area in which the journey is the goal.

 

Michael BC

[Natichu]

6 hours ago, Oldman said:

As a martial artist, I train with iaito between 2.50 and 2.55 shaku in length, and am hoping to land on something near that neighbourhood

 

I hope that by your comment about martial arts you don't mean that you intend to use an antique nihonto for iaido or other martial arts practise. Good luck in your search. This is indeed an area in which the journey is the goal.

 

Michael BC

No, as I mentioned above to Dan I don't intend to use an antique for training. The desire to own an antique of similar length to what I use in training is more philosophical in nature (a feel akin to having "my" sword and a connection to it, appreciating that I'm just a caretaker for a single generation of the swords much longer lifespan) rather than a practical limitation. 

[oli]

18 hours ago, Natichu said:

Thanks for the suggestions! Will start digging into options on those fronts as well. 

Maybe something like this: https://www.toukenko...&katana_A050724.html

[Shugyosha]

Hi Nathaniel, have you thought about compromising on length?
 

As you probably know, 70cm and longer blades attract a premium so, if you can live with something slightly shorter, you have better options in terms of quality. 

[Natichu]

6 hours ago, oli said:

Maybe something like this: https://www.toukenko...&katana_A050724.html

A very nice option for sure, much appreciated! Unfortunately a bit out of reach, but a lovely piece. 

[Natichu]

4 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Nathaniel, have you thought about compromising on length?
 

As you probably know, 70cm and longer blades attract a premium so, if you can live with something slightly shorter, you have better options in terms of quality. 

Hi John, 

 

I've definitely had some back and forth as to compromising on size, and might be willing to go as short as 2.40 (as the example above is), but don't think I'd go shorter. I definitely appreciate this both limits my options and means I'll be sacrificing quality but think that's the balance I'll be happiest with. 

 

I recall reading some posts from @Jussi EkholmEkholm on that front (hopefully he'll excuse the tag!) where he talked about his balancing of those factors, and putting appropriate size and shape at the forefront of things - or that's my recollection of them at any rate. Very much in line with what I'm going for, and I think he undoubtedly put it better than I can. 

 

That said I'll definitely keep it in mind and try not to close my mind off to the possibility, as you never know where the options will lead. 

 

Thanks for the input and insight! 

[Rivkin]

It says in the description specifically:

- its a iaido blade (there is absolutely nothing to see in it)

- bungoed by NBTHK, meaning they can't see ... either

- iaido (i.e. new, cheap but sturdy) koshirae.

[Natichu]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

It says in the description specifically:

- its a iaido blade (there is absolutely nothing to see in it)

- bungoed by NBTHK, meaning they can't see ... either

- iaido (i.e. new, cheap but sturdy) koshirae.

Thanks for the input! Learning to read between the lines of the Aoi descriptions seems to be a bit of an art. I took the iai reference to mean new, cheap, and sturdy koshirae (which I don't mind), but didn't apply it to the blade as well. 

 

In terms of the attribution by the NBTHK, I'm still very much learning on that front. While I understood Bungo Takada (and possibly less so Taira Takada and Fujiwara Takada) to be a bit of a kantei bucket of last resort, my thought was the attribution to a specific smith made that to be less likely. I take it I'm incorrect in that understanding though? Any insight there would be very much appreciated given my interest in pursing something from either the Takada or Dotanuki schools (and it seems like the former is going to be easier to get my hands on than the latter). 

[Rivkin]

In Japan quite a few dojo use "antique" swords since they can't easily import modern iai blades. But anything iaido suitable means the blade is nearly dead in every artistic aspect.

Bungo: honestly very solid school that produced masterpieces during Tensho period and very solid work around 1650. Victim of NBTHK decision to use it to dump every single blade it does not care about or does not understand into this category, in addition to good work which is appraised Bungo by merit. 

 

Dotanuki will be shorter, much more massive and by default average to high end quality in artistry. They feel very different in hand compared to other blades, they are excellent cutters and do not chip very easily despite nie hardening. 30 inch Dotanuki the blade alone will go probably above 1.2kg, so they are usually in 26-27 inch range.

Bungo - the best thing to go for suguha with tight itame, which can be either Rai or Aoe (even better) copy by Bungo. I have no idea how well they cut (these are higher end artistic blades which are actually quite rare). 

[Natichu]

39 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

In Japan quite a few dojo use "antique" swords since they can't easily import modern iai blades. But anything iaido suitable means the blade is nearly dead in every artistic aspect.

Bungo: honestly very solid school that produced masterpieces during Tensho period and very solid work around 1650. Victim of NBTHK decision to use it to dump every single blade it does not care about or does not understand into this category, in addition to good work which is appraised Bungo by merit. 

 

Dotanuki will be shorter, much more massive and by default average to high end quality in artistry. They feel very different in hand compared to other blades, they are excellent cutters and do not chip very easily despite nie hardening. 30 inch Dotanuki the blade alone will go probably above 1.2kg, so they are usually in 26-27 inch range.

Bungo - the best thing to go for suguha with tight itame, which can be either Rai or Aoe (even better) copy by Bungo. I have no idea how well they cut (these are higher end artistic blades which are actually quite rare). 

Fantastic information, thank you very much! Unfortunately I missed out on a Dotanuki a little while back from Touken Komachi as I was following the English page rather than the Japanese. Would have been a lovely find and checked pretty well all of my boxes:

 

https://www.toukenko...i&katanaA010624.html

 

Will keep digging into the Bungo side of things and keep your advice in mind. 

[Rivkin]

4 minutes ago, Natichu said:

Fantastic information, thank you very much! Unfortunately I missed out on a Dotanuki a little while back from Touken Komachi as I was following the English page rather than the Japanese. Would have been a lovely find and checked pretty well all of my boxes:

 

https://www.toukenko...i&katanaA010624.html

 

Will keep digging into the Bungo side of things and keep your advice in mind. 

 

This is an interesting blade. It does tick many boxes and its easy to study, but its also not a typical Dotanuki in many ways.

[Natichu]

12 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

 

This is an interesting blade. It does tick many boxes and its easy to study, but its also not a typical Dotanuki in many ways.

One never knows, it may come back around and find me. Otherwise, lots of things to learn in the meantime it seems! If you have any study resource recommendations on either Dotanuki or Bungo Takada, they'd be most welcome. 

[Rivkin]

7 minutes ago, Natichu said:

One never knows, it may come back around and find me. Otherwise, lots of things to learn in the meantime it seems! If you have any study resource recommendations on either Dotanuki or Bungo Takada, they'd be most welcome. 

 

I think as a first blade to purchase, its a good choice.

But there are couple of things I don't like about it. For example, "masame" does not change much as it crosses from hamon's area towards the ji and back. While it states in the description as sunagashi and kinsuji, you get this effect when hamon is not tempered into hard nie. So this blade is bright, but with Dotanuki better blades always show a lot of nie activity which is very much subdued here. Its both atypical and not the best.

[Natichu]

6 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

 

I think as a first blade to purchase, its a good choice.

But there are couple of things I don't like about it. For example, "masame" does not change much as it crosses from hamon's area towards the ji and back. While it states in the description as sunagashi and kinsuji, you get this effect when hamon is not tempered into hard nie. So this blade is bright, but with Dotanuki better blades always show a lot of nie activity which is very much subdued here. Its both atypical and not the best.

That makes sense, definitely an interesting looking blade, and if I understand your explanation correctly that very much explains why the activities in the hamon look almost more hada continued than what one usually sees. 

 

If it ever comes back on the market I may well jump, but think that's unlikely any time soon given it's just been purchased by someone else. That said, if it ever happens I'll certainly let you know. 

[Jon]

For a first katana I would honestly go with a blade with a Mei…of all my swords my favourites by far all have Mei…infact I’m only going to keep blades with Mei in future….it adds so much connection to the smith when you look down and see the Mei…it’s the thing that truly differentiates my Nihonto from my European swords….a true original work of art should have a signature….
 

[Natichu]

16 hours ago, Jon said:

For a first katana I would honestly go with a blade with a Mei…of all my swords my favourites by far all have Mei…infact I’m only going to keep blades with Mei in future….it adds so much connection to the smith when you look down and see the Mei…it’s the thing that truly differentiates my Nihonto from my European swords….a true original work of art should have a signature….
 

I can definitely see the appeal in having a papered zaimei blade, and that would be my preference. That said, with a restricted budget and strong preference as to size, for the moment I think mumei may be where I end up. If I can land a signed so much the better, but I'm more likely to compromise there than on length. Will very much keep in mind though, and let you know where I land!