Large tsuba for pre-edo period

[DalaranPhoenix]

Hi all, my first post in the forum, long time lurker. I have a question I hope you can help with. Im looking for sources or info about the larger "battle" tsuba pre-edo. Similar to the tsuba for the nodachi in 7 samurai. Ive read somewhere that people went to war with bigger and plainer tsuba that are more or less expandable item and only mount the fancier tsuba for display or everyday carry. But I can only find a few examples of Muromachi tsuba at 10cm, which to me isn't that large considering tachi/nodachi of the time easily went to 170cm.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Soshin]

Here is one dating a little bit later during the early Edo Period. It might be larger than the one in the photo at 10.4 cm. While the openwork looks thin it is not weak and the plate of the tsuba is very thick and well forged.  

 

 

 

[Jesta]

This one is listed as early Edo period, and seems to be reasonably large (8.09cm x 8.05cm): https://www.aoijapan...a-mumei-kacchushi-2/ 

Not as large as 10cm, but more than sufficient to guard your hands I would guess. 

 

Edit: I just found this one too: 

 

[Spartancrest]

I have two overly large guards, one like David's [mine has wider spokes]. The other kobushi shape. They do exist but there remains the possibility that many of these very large guards could have been cut down in size over time, particularly the solid plate ones. You will notice both guards are larger than 10 cm - I wonder just what the upper limit might be?

Sasano has a couple in his book  "Early Japanese Sword Guards: Sukashi Tsuba"

 

 

https://nihonto.com/5-6-22/ A large Ko-Katchushi

http://www.nihonto.us/UTSUSHI OF ASHIKAGA TSUBA.htm   this one could be an 'utsushi' of the one in Sasano's book 

 

Have a look at the size of this Kabuki actor's sword-guard.  

[ROKUJURO]

Alexandre,

 

I don't think you will find many functional TSUBA larger than 100 mm as 90 mm is already considered quite large. There are larger ones but I suspect they were more of display items, just like NODACHI with a length of 200 cm or more. 

If you look at KO TOSHO  and KO KACHUSHI TSUBA, you will find representative sizes for pre-EDO TSUBA.

In addition to that, the size of a TSUBA was not at all directly related to the length of a blade. 

[Ghoul]

I don't know much about mine, but I have often thought my gunbai tsuba could be early and made for war rather than art:

 

 

It is only 8cm in diameter though, but feels very practical. I do wonder why you would need tsuba any larger than this, as extra weight feels like it would be a disadvantage, and I can't see much benefit of a wider tsuba if its primary purpose is to prevent an opponents weapon from sliding down your own and attacking your hand. So I also agree with the opinions that larger tsuba are likely for show rather than utility.

 

[Tohagi]

You can use it as an umbrela...

 

OK, I go 

 

best Éric 

[OceanoNox]

3 hours ago, Ghoul said:

if its primary purpose is to prevent an opponents weapon from sliding down your own and attacking your hand. So I also agree with the opinions that larger tsuba are likely for show rather than utility.

Some koryu teach to snipe the hands or wrists (grab victory a few sun from the tsuba), so maybe the larger tsuba are for some safety margin.

I have no idea where they came up with the numbers, but there are some documents from Edo (maybe inspired by earlier scrolls) recommending 9~10 cm in diameter, as well as increasing thickness if you have more sukashi. Another also says that the sukashi should not be too large, to avoid a weapon going through it.

[zanilu]

The largest in my collection:

 

Edo period Katsushi 105.0 mm x 100.0 mm , thickness at seppa dai 2.5 mm, at mimi 3.3 mm.   

 

 

 

Edo period (Early?) Heianjo Zogan 102.5 mm x 102.3 mm, thickness at seppa dai 4.2 mm, at mimi 4.0 mm.

 

 

Regards 

Luca

[Steves87]

7 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

Some koryu teach to snipe the hands or wrists (grab victory a few sun from the tsuba), so maybe the larger tsuba are for some safety margin.

Yes this is true, there are a few techniques that go for a wrist strike  (that i know about). We used to do full contact sparring with shinai (kenjutsu, not Kendo), and one trick was swapping the tsuba out for extra large Tsuba (3d printed) incase these moves were done. It worked, but the solid plastic Tsuba only lasted a couple of hits before it snapped on mis-judged strikes/blocks. The wrist hits generally were not heavy enough to break the guard, but they did stop the shinai. 

[Soshin]

Size is more of a personal preference I think of the warrior using the sword during Warring States Period (Sengoku-jidai 戦国時代).This is the period that the movie Seven Samurai takes place in. Keep in mind that there were styles of (Kenjutsu 剣術) (swordsmanship) and would use larger tsuba in specific ways. These schools date from the Edo Period but do have connections to the early Kenjutsu practiced by veterans of the Warring States Period.