Maru-dome style Bo-hi on a Koto o-suriage blade

[Lewis B]

Something that has me thinking. I understand the Kaki-toshi style groove extending into and possibly past the end of the nakago when the blade is shortened, as this was originally carved by the sword maker. But what if the blade is o-suriage and the bo-hi only extends as far as the hamachi? Does this occur if the bo-hi was carved later at the time it was shortened or even later? If not original to the blade is this considered a negative either academically and/or financially?

[Tohagi]

Hello,

 

Very sharp Topic!

In my very poor opinion, a bohi added later change the structure of the sword,  the jigane is usualy  different from the core soft steel.

It could be made to take out a flaw like a fukure...  sometimes horimono are used in that way.

Good maru bohi are difficult to carve, generaly you can spot from the general  position and shape if it's a later work...

 

For me it is not suitable unless it is a very fine work...

 

Best regards, 

 

Éric VD 

[GeorgeLuucas]

I think what you are referring to is called ATOBI.

 

If it’s a horimono carved after smithing it’s called ATOBORI.

 

Hope this helps your searches,

All the best,

-Sam 

[Lewis B]

This is the bo-hi in question. Seller calls it kaki-nagashi but that extends much further into nakago according to Nagayama. This looks more like a hybrid Maru-dome bo-hi, conveniently terminating before the yokan-iro. For me this appears to be an ato-bi carving. It passed Juyo shinsa.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Similar Hi termination and placement, on Ko-Uda:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lewis B]

21 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Similar Hi termination and placement, on Ko-Uda:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting. Is that shigane in the centre of the groove? Certainly doesn't look original in that example.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Trick of the lighting, no flaw there.

[Lewis B]

How would you classify a bo-hi like that assuming its o-suriage. But with a single mekugi-ana it could be ubu so the maru-dome hi might be original.

[sabiji]

Even if a blade is ubu, it is no guarantee that the Hi was added later. Ato = after, later, Hori = carving.

What is more important is the overall concept: is the swordsmith/school known for horimono? If so, are the Horimono/Hi similar in concept and execution with different blades from the smith/school? Then you can have some certainty.

With certain swordsmiths I would be rather suspicious if the blade has a Hi, especially in the Shinto period.

 

Many koto blades have hi that are atobori. I wouldn't pay too much attention to that.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Likely coincidental, but note similar Bo-hi placement on related schools (Norishige > Ko-Uda).

[Lewis B]

2 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Likely coincidental, but note similar Bo-hi placement on related schools (Norishige > Ko-Uda).

Have yet to see another late Kamakura/Nanbokucho blade by the likes of Norishige, Tametsugu or Sanekage with a horimono that ends so conveniently on a shortened sword. Almost all the ones I can find online are kaki nagashi and extend 1/3 to 2/3 along the nakago.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Well between these two swords specifically, not the schools themselves.

[Soshin]

On 8/2/2024 at 5:22 AM, sabiji said:

Many koto blades have hi that are atobori. I wouldn't pay too much attention to that.

 

Yes, I agree many Koto blades are atobori.  Here is my example of a late Koto blade that was not atobori. This sword of mine is o-suriage but the bo-hi I think were original to the sword before it was shortened. 

 

 

 

[Lewis B]

Dealer is saying if the bohi was Atobori it would not get Juyo. Personally I don't think this is correct if the blade is from a master smith and in otherwise excellent health. This particlar blade is papered to Norishige. All the evidence suggests it was a later carving possibly when it was shortened for aestheric or balance reasons. I cannot understand any instance whereby the bohi would end so cleanly at the hamachi if it was original. The literature also says horimono was rare for Norishige. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

So far I have found 6 tachi by Norishige and only 1 of them has hi. This is Jūyō Bunkazai that is owned by Agency for Cultural Affairs.

 

 

Then for comparison so far I have documented 74 suriage katana that are attributed to Norishige and 43 of them have hi. Unfortunately I cannot dig deep into the reasons why it is like this as it is beyond my expertise. However data on items would suggest that hi on Norishige tachi is quite rare thing, while it is actually quite common on suriage katana attributed towards Norishige.

[Franco D]

9 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Dealer is saying if the bohi was Atobori it would not get Juyo.

 

Perhaps the best Ko Naminohira I have ever seen had an Atobori horimono. Part of the history of this blade was that when it was submitted to Juyo shinsa by a collector whose name we would all immediately recognize, it was turned down and not accepted because of the Atobori horimono. So, the dealer may indeed be correct.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Den Norishige with similar Bo-Hi: https://www.samurai-nippon.net/SHOP/P-480.html

 

[Lewis B]

4 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Den Norishige with similar Bo-Hi: https://www.samurai-nippon.net/SHOP/P-480.html

 

Not quite the same. The carving on that Den Norishige extends far into the yokan iro as would be expected if original to the blade, whereas it ends abruptly in the Norishige I referenced as well as on the Ko Uda. I can see no other explanation than that these were carved more recently. 

 

As a matter of interest. When the Hi is carved by the sword maker is it done before or after Yaki-ire?

[PNSSHOGUN]

From what I can understand, Horimono are done after Yaki-ire.

[atm]

@Lewis B Are you willing to share a link? I think it would be helpful to see more of the sword in question to better understand the context.

[Lewis B]

50 minutes ago, atm said:

@Lewis B Are you willing to share a link? I think it would be helpful to see more of the sword in question to better understand the context.

I posted it in another thread but its relevant here too to see the full sugata. 

 

[Char]

13 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Den Norishige with similar Bo-Hi: https://www.samurai-nippon.net/SHOP/P-480.html

 

Amazing picture of both sides of the blade.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I got the book last year that features this sword. If I read correctly NBTHK just states that there is bo-hi & soe-hi carved on both sides.

 

Now one thing to consider that as the sword is judged as ō-suriage and no ana in the lower portion of the tang, I feel that would indicate that it would have been at least 15+ cm longer originally. As the sword is now 69,3 cm katana with 17,8 cm nakago it would in my assumption have been 85+ cm tachi. For me it is often difficult trying to grasp the original shape of shortened items.

 

I believe the Jūyō Bunkazai Norishige I posted above has been shortened c. 13 cm which would made it around 85 cm tachi originally as the current length is 71,5 cm. The longest ubu Norishige tachi I have found is mumei attributed to Norishige and it is 79,1 cm.

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

 

 

I believe the Jūyō Bunkazai Norishige I posted above has been shortened c. 13 cm which would made it around 85 cm tachi originally as the current length is 71,5 cm. The longest ubu Norishige tachi I have found is mumei attributed to Norishige and it is 79,1 cm.

That is the tachi that was part of this years Masamune Juttetsu Exhibition at the Fukuyama Museum. Spectacular Sugata. It is zaimai and you can see the kanji at end of the nakago. If I had to choose one sword this would be a strong contender. 

 

 

It's interesting to compare the differences in jihada. Top one is the Juyo Bunkazai Tachi above. The lower one is a Juyo wakazashi. 

 

[Honya]

On 8/6/2024 at 7:39 PM, Franco D said:

 

Perhaps the best Ko Naminohira I have ever seen had an Atobori horimono. Part of the history of this blade was that when it was submitted to Juyo shinsa by a collector whose name we would all immediately recognize, it was turned down and not accepted because of the Atobori horimono. So, the dealer may indeed be correct.

 

The sword called "Kousetsu Samonji" has bohi that seem to me as Atobori. And it is a National Treasure. But maybe it is not Atobori or it's possible that in some cases National Treasure wouldn't pass Juyo... 

 

Time 6:20

 

 

 

 

[Honya]

Is it possible at all? Kokuhō which wouldn't get NBTHK Jūyō tōken? I can imagine some serious battle damage on a very important sword... 

[Lewis B]

This to me is a good example of a poorly executed Atobori bohi. I'm a bit dubious of sellers claims its Ubu too.

 

https://www.catawiki...ura-period-1185-1333

[Jussi Ekholm]

While I do not know the fine inner workings of NBTHK, I would not think specifics of hi in general would stop swords. There are actual cases where the sword has been altered between Jūyō and Tokubetsu Jūyō shinsa and the sword has passed Tokubetsu Jūyō.

 

Of course for that specific sword it might have been that something particular on that hi threw off the judging panel. NBTHK sometimes seems to be flexible on their standards and sometimes very strict. For examples some saiha (rehardened) blades have passed Jūyō. Latest example that is have good info on is the named sword Hachiman Masamune 八幡正宗 in session 68. However the sword has huge background info and provenance. That historical provenance is something I am just now starting to get into and it is super fascinating. I actually spent 14 hours last weekend researching background of some shrine & museum swords.

 

The famous Kōsetsu Samonji has been in Japanese experts opinion shortened c. 10 cm from original length. It is very famous sword I just checked I have it featured in 24 different reference books/magazines.

 

I believe the Catawiki sword would be in original length. To me it looks like the tachi mei it had has been removed. NBTHK passed it as Kōdai Hōju - Later Hōju (後代宝寿). While Hōju can be seen as Kamakura - Nanbokuchō work, when NBTHK puts 後代宝寿 in brackets they put it towards Muromachi period work. So it would most likely not be the Kamakura period sword that was advertised. Still I am bit puzzled why NBTHK did not pass it as mumei tachi but went for mumei katana.