Shipping a Shinsakuto as an antique, what's the worst that can happen?

[Alex A]

Recently speaking to a collector in the UK, he was saying the dealer in Japan wanted to state "antique" on a modern sword that he is importing.

 

Quite surprising really, the dealer should know better. Perhaps not familiar with UK lately.

 

I get why they might want to do this and would understand the importer kind of agreeing with the idea.

 

Told him honesty is the best policy with customs. If they ask for proof of age then it could go pear shaped, especially when looking at other import disasters over the last few years.

 

Said this was the description to use, from Darcys write-up

 

TRADITIONALLY MADE Japanese CULTURAL ARTWORK BY (smiths name)

And add customs tariff number which is 9705.00.00.90

 

Just in case anyone considering the idea,

 

 

 

 

 

[Brendan campbell]

It needs to be made before 1954, and hand made . If it’s for martial arts , you need proof of your license, Dojo insurance. This covers the Borderforce rules as it’s not an antique. Finally good luck. My 1944 hand made blade , signature translated , no edge, took 8 months to be cleared .

[Alex A]

Hi Brendan, never heard of the 1954 rule

 

Where did that come from?

 

Was your sword imported via EMS/Parcelforce by any chance?

 

Hopefully, being a shorter tanto, may have less hassle, wel see

[Brendan campbell]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Hi Brendan, never heard of the 1954 rule

 

Where did that come from?

 

Was your sword imported via EMS/Parcelforce by any chance?

 

Hopefully, being a shorter tanto, may have less hassle, wel see

Hi Alex, if you go on Borderforce, look up importing a sword , they specify the length over 50 cm and it’s a curved blade. Their rules are , antique, religious, martial arts. The first 3 emails I had from them, asked for the same questions only they reworded it differently. My response was the same , age, maker, date, on the blade, hand made , antique. All translated and proof from 3  independent experts ( Paul Martin, Ray singer, Terry Ingolds ) all stating the same. Their inspection personnel are basically parcel openers, then it falls into a banned weapon, you can’t have it.I asked for a review officer , he had more than 1 brain cell, I then got my blade, not a complete sword. I have now purchased Gunto fittings from Japan , it’s away as we speak . It now has a very sharpe edge and its back in original shape , much more to be done. UPS delivered it from East Midlands airport. You will still have a problem even with a tanto, in their mind it’s a knife. 

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Alex A said:

Hi Brendan, never heard of the 1954 rule

 

Where did that come from?

 

Was your sword imported via EMS/Parcelforce by any chance?

 

Hopefully, being a shorter tanto, may have less hassle, wel see

 

Alex 

Not quite true. We emailed all of our ToKen members with this here: https://to-ken.uk/re...egal-and-import.html

 

People need to refer to what we have discussed on this board several times and also to references on this and other websites. That is why the Token committee and John in particular (big shoutout to him) drafted this guidance note.  

[Alex A]

Hi Michael.

 

Don't remember seeing that email or a link to that guidance note here on the board. Just checked my emails, don't think i received it. will need a re-read when have more time but very useful.

 

Hopefully, will add some good news to the Brit thread if his tanto turns up without hassles.

 

We will see,

 

 

 

 

 

[Brendan campbell]

[Brendan campbell]

This is a section of my reply, stating their rulings , I hope this is of use to you and possibly the To-Ken . Their reply was 13 pages in total. 

[Gakusee]

14 hours ago, Alex A said:

Hi Michael.

 

Don't remember seeing that email or a link to that guidance note here on the board. Just checked my emails, don't think i received it. will need a re-read when have more time but very useful.

 

Hopefully, will add some good news to the Brit thread if his tanto turns up without hassles.

 

We will see,

 

 

 

 

 

Let us hope for a positive outcome. One needs to be patient and well informed and have the right documentary back-up evidence. 

[Gakusee]

38 minutes ago, Brendan campbell said:

This is a section of my reply, stating their rulings , I hope this is of use to you and possibly the To-Ken . Their reply was 13 pages in total. 

Brendan - thank you but did you even open the link I posted above? We have explained all of that and much more. 

[Brendan campbell]

Hi Michael s, yes I did , I did read this i think last December, in 7 months you do forget all you have been reading , and speaking to other collectors , as you are trying every avenue to try and get logic over to these persons who are controlling your property, as I previously said .This situation and the movement of swords in the UK , has put me of buying abroad. I had a in the 70s/80s/90s a very fine collection of Koto/Shinto/ Gendaito. I collected with my late father , we had around 30-35 swords in total. When he passed in 1997, I sold all my swords and only started up again in December 2019. This time around I am only buying Gendaito, with good names. Thank you for reminding me ref the gov terms in full, I must after 45+ years rejoin the TO-KEN. 

[Gakusee]

14 minutes ago, Brendan campbell said:

Hi Michael s, yes I did , I did read this i think last December, in 7 months you do forget all you have been reading , and speaking to other collectors , as you are trying every avenue to try and get logic over to these persons who are controlling your property, as I previously said .This situation and the movement of swords in the UK , has put me of buying abroad. I had a in the 70s/80s/90s a very fine collection of Koto/Shinto/ Gendaito. I collected with my late father , we had around 30-35 swords in total. When he passed in 1997, I sold all my swords and only started up again in December 2019. This time around I am only buying Gendaito, with good names. Thank you for reminding me ref the gov terms in full, I must after 45+ years rejoin the TO-KEN. 

 

Brendan, it is not easy. In fact it has become more difficult in the last 20 or so years but people need to read and prepare throughly. “Talking to collectors” does not cut it anymore. Attention to detail and familiarity with the law are important. Please also refer to the separate thread about Royal Mail / Parcelforce. There is some misunderstanding in that point too. 

[Brendan campbell]

Please educate, what am I misunderstanding in the post office / parcel force not  allowing you to send swords via themselves?? Have you not been reading the new remarks from all the major auction houses , or am I misunderstanding their new terms .  I do believe some collectors are still using the above to move swords between them selves , I have also heard that suspicious parcels of a certain length , are being x-rayed, is it worth the risk. 

[Alex A]

8 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Let us hope for a positive outcome. One needs to be patient and well informed and have the right documentary back-up evidence. 

 

He is in a better position now then if he had let it be sent as "antique".

 

Listed correctly with all the appropriate details to back it up, invoice, dealer info etc etc.

 

Also, told him to add info about himself, age, why he is importing it, Member of Arms and armour society etc etc.

 

All helps, agree, cant get it wrong in this day and age. 

 

Apparently its being sent via UPS. I know folks have had issues here with UPS but my experiences with them have been great, but that was for antique guns, not swords.

 

Always feels like bit of a Russian Roulette scenario, whether it gets handled by someone in the know or you end up unlucky.

 

I'm hoping it goes well, as I'm importing a tanto when its ready.

 

Whether its my last import or not i don't know, kind of ******* off with it all now.

 

Anyways, fingers crossed.

[Brendan campbell]

Good luck Alex, fingers all crossed ,keep us informed. 👍

[Alex A]

Just learnt that the dealer sent him a tracking number with EMS.

 

Oh dear, they were warned

 

and did state originally that they were using UPS to UK.

 

Told him to tell them, if they can stop delivery before it leaves Japan, do it.

[Lewis B]

Hope he paid with a credit card.

[Alex A]

He has just heard from the dealer.

 

The dealer says the package was sent on the 1st Aug and EMS have returned to sender.

 

Seems they are on the ball with regarding shipping swords to UK.

 

Now if the dealer does not want to ship via UPS, or cant for some reason.

 

Its effectively GAME OVER.

[Brendan campbell]

Sorry to hear, but if it dose not even leave the country of origin, your stuffed. 🙁

[Alex A]

The dealer will refund him, they are ok like that..

 

Once they get the sword back, which should be tomorrow.

 

He awaits their response regarding UPS.

 

All this just shows you cant trust some dealers. You can spoon feed them details and some will just ignore you and do it the usual way.

 

Obviously not got their head around the issue here yet.

 

Wouldn't mind but i sent a direct mail asking them about delivery a few months ago on a sword i was interested in, he told them at the start of the purchase.

 

Different staff dealing with it maybe.