Mumei Showato

[Emil]

What can you tell me about this Showato?

 

Unfortunately I don't have any good pictures, just a few I took in the store before I left Japan. I'm now waiting for the export permit.

 

1. I'm assuming it's oil quenched?

2. I'm confused about the concept of  Showato honestly, if it was made for WW2, how did it find it's way back to Koshirae and lose it's gunto fittings?

3. Any additional information that can be found from these low quality photos?

 

Thank you

 

[dyn]

This looks like aoi's description? If it is from aoi 99%chance it is a nihonto. Especially since you bought it in Japan. Swords in Japan need to have a registration certificate, and if they do it means it is a nihonto as a general rule of thumb.

 

I don't think they are saying it is a showato, they are just saying it is showa era (which isn't the same thing).

 

edit: Maybe the defititions here can help:
 

https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/showato.htm

 

edit 2: It appears that this is an illegally registered showato? I’ve never seen this before but please ignore my reply.

[David Flynn]

In  Japan,  Gendaito, are Showato ( meaning, made in the Showa period) and Gunto, are what we call in the west, Showato.

[Emil]

31 minutes ago, David Flynn said:

In  Japan,  Gendaito, are Showato ( meaning, made in the Showa period) and Gunto, are what we call in the west, Showato.

This is very confusing for me 😅

 

In an email conversation they told me the followingly:

 

"It's a Showa-to, made during WW2. During this era, in order to be used in the war, it was mass-produced. The character of Showa-to is a little bit wider on Kasane,(the rim), not to be bent easily"

[Emil]

1 hour ago, dyn said:

This looks like aoi's description? If it is from aoi 99%chance it is a nihonto. Especially since you bought it in Japan. Swords in Japan need to have a registration certificate, and if they do it means it is a nihonto as a general rule of thumb.

 

I don't think they are saying it is a showato, they are just saying it is showa era (which isn't the same thing).

 

edit: Maybe the defititions here can help:
 

https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/showato.htm

It is Aoi, but it wasn't listed on their website. It's something they brought out for me in the store when I asked for something suitable for tameshigiri. They also said it was massproduced in an email to me. I just want to get a better understanding of what I bought exactly.

[PNSSHOGUN]

2 hours ago, dyn said:

This looks like aoi's description? If it is from aoi 99%chance it is a nihonto. Especially since you bought it in Japan. Swords in Japan need to have a registration certificate, and if they do it means it is a nihonto as a general rule of thumb.

 

I don't think they are saying it is a showato, they are just saying it is showa era (which isn't the same thing).

 

edit: Maybe the defititions here can help:
 

https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/showato.htm

 

This is not correct, Aoi have been known to sell the crudest of oil tempered swords with stamps removed. It's a valuable lesson to realise that just because a sword comes from Japan, it isn't always Nihonto. Judge each sword on its own merits, rather than implicitly trusting a dealers listing and estimation.

[dyn]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

 

This is not correct, Aoi have been known to sell the crudest of oil tempered swords with stamps removed. It's a valuable lesson to realise that just because a sword comes from Japan, it isn't always Nihonto. Judge each sword on its own merits, rather than implicitly trusting a dealers listing and estimation.

 

I was definitely not aware that Aoi grinds off the stamps (that sounds sketchy as hell).

 

I was under the impression that non traditional made swords in Japan were illegal which is why it is actually quite shocking to me that Aoi would sell one. Since the original poster said Aoi had to deregister I assumed that it was a registered nihonto, but it seems I was mistaken there.

 

John, I looked a little further and I think I do see the characteristic shadow of an oil quenched hamon, so it is a showato. You have my thanks for correcting me. 

 

Unfortunately EL there’s really nothing else I can tell you about this blade given that it is mumei (and likely had all of its stamps ground off). Maybe someone else on the forum might be able to chime in.

 

edit: The stamps ground off part was a joke. I’d like to make it clear that i’m not suggesting one way or the other regarding this particular sword.

[Emil]

8 minutes ago, dyn said:

 

I was definitely not aware that Aoi grinds off the stamps (that sounds sketchy as hell).

 

I was under the impression that non traditional made swords in Japan were illegal which is why it is actually quite shocking to me that Aoi would sell one. Since the original poster said Aoi had to deregister I assumed that it was a registered nihonto, but it seems I was mistaken there.

 

John, I looked a little further and I think I do see the characteristic shadow of an oil quenched hamon, so it is a showato. You have my thanks for correcting me. 

 

Unfortunately EL there’s really nothing else I can tell you about this blade given that it is mumei (and likely had all of its stamps ground off). 

What would be the reason for removing original stamps?

 

They were never trying to hide the fact from me that it was a Showato. I would be surprised if they had recommended a Nihonto for tameshigiri.

[dyn]

8 minutes ago, Emilll said:

What would be the reason for removing original stamps?

 

They were never trying to hide the fact from me that it was a Showato. I would be surprised if they had recommended a Nihonto for tameshigiri.

 

That part was (apparently) a poor attempt at humor.

 

I’m not saying that they hid the fact that this was a showato. I’m just referring to the fact that John said they did in the past for other swords (as a tongue in cheek joke).

 

Your sword likely didn’t come with stamps since many showato were made before the stamps became mandatory. In fact I have a showato myself that doesn’t have stamps. Aoi did not lie to you at all that this was a showato. 

[Emil]

5 minutes ago, dyn said:

 

That part was (apparently) a poor attempt at humor.

 

I’m not saying that they hid the fact that this was a showato. I’m just referring to the fact that John said they did in the past for other swords (as a tongue in cheek joke).

 

Your sword may or may not have come with stamps since many showato were made before the stamps became mandatory. In fact I have a showato myself that doesn’t have stamps. Aoi did not lie to you at all that this was a showato. 

I understand, thank your for the help.

 

So given that it is a Showato, would it ever have been in gunto dressing? And someone spent money on it to make proper Koshirae for it? Or what's the usual story for these katanas?

[dyn]

EL, I own a showato in Type 98 shin gunto koshirae. But for your particular sword I cannot tell what the original fittings was (and I’m not sure if anybody can). Showato could come in many different types of koshirae. At most I can take an educated guess.

 

Based on my own experience (so take this with a grain of salt) this would’ve been either in Type 94, Type 98 or Type 3 fittings. I personally would not be surprised if I saw this sword in shin gunto fittings.

 

I’m ruling out naval fittings and type 95 NCO fittings because machine made kai gunto typically have an anchor stamp and were made of stainless steel. It’s also not a Type 95 since Type 95 NCO swords typically have numbers stamped into the blade.

 

I’ve seen many variations of the Type 98/Type 3/Type 94 that I really couldn’t say for certain which this originally came in. I’m not even sure if there is a usual story for how a sword ends up losing its wartime fittings but the most I can say is that it is a possibility that it once had type 98/94 or type 3 mounts.

 

 

As an aside I’ve got a star stamped gendaito in modern mounts (no idea where the wartime mounts went either), so if anything we’re actually in a similar boat in terms of not quite knowing the history of the sword.

 

In case you are interested in seeing more information about wartime swords, this page has some: http://ohmura-study.net/211.html

[Emil]

10 minutes ago, dyn said:

EL, I own a showato in Type 98 shin gunto koshirae. But for your particular sword I cannot tell what the original fittings was (and I’m not sure if anybody can). Showato could come in many different types of koshirae. At most I can take an educated guess.

 

Based on my own experience (so take this with a grain of salt) this would’ve been either in Type 94, Type 98 or Type 3 fittings.

 

This is because machine made kai gunto typically have an anchor stamp and were made of stainless steel. It’s also not a Type 95 since Type 95 NCO swords were machine made and have numbers stamped into the blade.

 

I’ve seen many variations of the Type 98/Type 3/Type 94 that I really couldn’t say for certain which this originally came in. I’m not even sure if there is a usual story for how a sword ends up losing its wartime fittings but the most I can say is that it is a possibility that it once had type 98/94 or type 3 mounts.

 

 

As an aside I’ve got a star stamped gendaito in modern mounts (no idea where the wartime mounts went either), so if anything we’re actually in a similar boat in terms of not quite knowing the history of the sword.

 

In case you are interested in seeing more information about wartime swords, this page has some: http://ohmura-study.net/211.html

Thank you,

 

For me it's interesting that someone would take time time and effort to create a beautiful koshirae and shirasaya for a katana that in Japan is not considered especially valuable.

 

But I guess it's the Japanese best option for tameshigiri since they don't want to ruin better blades?

[Brian]

It's really not all that unusual anymore to find occasional Showato in Japan, registered and sometimes even papered. They are aware of the collectibility of them and if they get a chance to have it registered, they will. The authorities aren't as strict as they once were, and the occasional one slips through, also depending on who is submitting.
It seems to be a case of "don't ask, don't tell" and if an arsenal stamp isn't there anymore, even easier for the registering guys to have plausible deniability. I think there just isn't a massive drive to keep Showato as illegal. They aren't going to pass new laws anytime soon, but everyone there I guess doesn't see the real harm.
Remove the arsenal stamp, put it into non-Gunto fittings...and everyone gets to claim it wasn't obvious. Win win for everyone.
Don't make waves...and I guess we'll see more of this, which isn't a terrible thing as long as buyers are aware of what they are getting.
 

[dyn]

Brain that would make sense. Get rid of the wartime fittings and the sword becomes infinitely easier to register and pass off as traditionally made.

[Emil]

This Katana was recommended to me specifically for tameshigiri. They even said the blade is thicker to prevent bends.

 

What's your take? Anything I should be aware of before using it for tameshigiri?

 

The Japanese man who taught me tameshigiri was using a Showato, so it's not my first time doing it.