NBTHK Shinsa through dealer

[klee]

Good Evening 

 

I wanted to ask your thoughts and opinions on submitting for NBTHK shinsa through the dealer.

 

The NBTHK Hozon certificate is rather old from 1992 and I wasnt sure if it would be worth the time and cost to try for Tokubetsu Hozon. If the blade is worthy, I find it hard to believe that no one has tried to submit it since. Are these types of submissions done regularly with success ? 

 

I am in the process of purchasing the sword from Touken Komachi. As I am a fan of finding decent Sue Bizen blades, this one was very unique to me.

 

Here is the link to the sword

https://eirakudo.shop/018294

( please note the sword is being purchased at Touken Komachi but I found the same sword at Eirakudo which has much better images )

 

What I found interesting is that it s a Kiyomitsu that is dated Eisho which I have personally never seen before ( vast majority being from Tenbun/Eiroku )

 

Based on the the meikan and Markus Sesko's list as well as all other sources , only one Kiyomitsu ( Nomura Gorozaemon ) was active in Eisho unlike the mid/end of 1500.

 

Would it be worth trying for TH while its in Japan or just ship it as it is ?

 

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and opinions

 

Kind Regards

-Kevin

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Kevin,

These are the criteria for TH shinsa published on the Nihontocraft website (I assume they're still current):

 

Tokubetsu Hozon Token
1) Blades with Hozon papers, good workmanship and state of preservation can receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.
2) Blades with the following conditions are excluded from point 1.
a. Re-tempered blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule, unless they date not later than Nanbokucho, are zaimei, by famous smiths, if the blade is valuable as a reference, and if the jiba and nakago are sufficiently well preserved. However, this will be documented as "yaki-naoshi" in the paper.
b. Muromachi and Edo period mumei blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule. However, if a blade is attributable to a famous smithand in excellent condition it may receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

http://nihontocraft....hinsa_Standards.html

 

I've italicised paragraph 2b. which would probably give you the answer as to why this blade hasn't been submitted to TH shinsa before (or has and failed).

[Rivkin]

Its late so I might be missing something, but it looks like its signed and dated, the work is ok, so TH is very likely. Whether it will gain a lot in valuation with TH versus just H is a difficult question to answer.

[Gakusee]

  On 7/30/2024 at 8:55 AM, Shugyosha said:

Hi Kevin,

These are the criteria for TH shinsa published on the Nihontocraft website (I assume they're still current):

 

Tokubetsu Hozon Token
1) Blades with Hozon papers, good workmanship and state of preservation can receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.
2) Blades with the following conditions are excluded from point 1.
a. Re-tempered blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule, unless they date not later than Nanbokucho, are zaimei, by famous smiths, if the blade is valuable as a reference, and if the jiba and nakago are sufficiently well preserved. However, this will be documented as "yaki-naoshi" in the paper.
b. Muromachi and Edo period mumei blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule. However, if a blade is attributable to a famous smithand in excellent condition it may receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

http://nihontocraft....hinsa_Standards.html

 

I've italicised paragraph 2b. which would probably give you the answer as to why this blade hasn't been submitted to TH shinsa before (or has and failed).

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John, however this blade is signed and dated…. Therefore the mumei exclusion condition does not apply here. 

[Shugyosha]

Thanks Michael, eyesight and grey matter failing me again. 

[atm]

Some important questions are: (1) does the dealer offer a shinsa service, (2) is it likely to pass TH, (3) are you prepared to wait about a year for the whole process, (4) what value increase would TH bring? I probably would not pursue TH because of the wait, if it were my sword. But it certainly makes sense to do it while it is still in Japan if you are inclined to pursue TH.

[kissakai]

I purchase a daishi tsuba set from Japan and the dealer asked if I wanted to submit it for papers which I did

The papers said Owari Daisho so a good result

If in doubt do it whilst in Japan, so much cheaper than deciding to do it at a later date

 

[klee]

  On 7/30/2024 at 7:23 PM, atm said:

Some important questions are: (1) does the dealer offer a shinsa service, (2) is it likely to pass TH, (3) are you prepared to wait about a year for the whole process, (4) what value increase would TH bring? I probably would not pursue TH because of the wait, if it were my sword. But it certainly makes sense to do it while it is still in Japan if you are inclined to pursue TH.

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Good Afternoon Adam 

 

Yes Tsukada San from Touken Komachi was very kind to offer the service and the cost would be very cheap and most of it would be refunded if it didnt not pass TH.

 

It is unfortunate being in the US and not being able to see the blade in hand but she does seem fairly optimistic.

 

The shinsa is in September and according to Tsukada San it will take 3 months for the results and to ship.

 

It would be great to have TH for the blade since the mei and nengo can be attributed to a specific smith but then again it really wouldnt confirm anything more than what the Hozon did

[Bazza]

OTTOMH, I recall that yodareba means 'cow dribble' hamon???  And also that it was/is a characteristic of Kiyomitsu??

 

"yodare" means drool:

https://www.nihongomaster.com/Japanese/dictionary/word/1210/yodare-涎-よだれ

 

BaZZa.

[klee]

  On 7/31/2024 at 1:45 AM, Bazza said:

OTTOMH, I recall that yodareba means 'cow dribble' hamon???  And also that it was/is a characteristic of Kiyomitsu??

 

"yodare" means drool:

https://www.nihongomaster.com/Japanese/dictionary/word/1210/yodare-涎-よだれ

 

BaZZa.

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it s a very strange term indeed lol

[PhoenixDude]

+1 for Tsukada-san, I have boght stuff from TK a few times and shes very accommodating.

[Gakusee]

I have worked with Shiho Tsukada san and her team. They are good and helpful and my purchases have always arrived promptly. 

[Rivkin]

Mixed feelings.

NEGATIVES:

Once or twice I bought from him (her? never met in person) an item which had old papers, was described as Kamakura major name with an explicit statement in Japanese its guaranteed to paper.

The seller confirmed during the transaction that the item is great, Kamakura, and will paper.

Turned out "guaranteed to paper" means it will get Hozon to something-anything.

Another time it turned out the torokusho was from a completely different blade, which is btw not at all uncommon in Japan since it becomes an issue only when exporting.

He is one of the guys who tries to haggle aggressively but when you respond in kind he might get (a little) offended.

Lots of dealer speak in descriptions. Everything is dated as early as it very theoretically can be.

Some items are clickbait. The blade owned by another person, but it appears in the sales section to attract interest.

 

POSITIVES:

He has very good eye, gets from time to time very pretty blades for not a lot of money, a very good photographer who can do really well with old Bizen blades (but! they will look prettier in photos than in real life).

Overall, he gets consignments from good old Bizen collectors in Japan.

Finally, at least couple of times I was a real .... to him, or better to say my English statements were nuanced enough they could have been (and were) interpreted as essentially taking him for a ride on a significant blade... and we kept doing business afterwords and he did put quite some effort the deals went through ok.

 

All in all, this is a good seller, but NOT for beginners. You have to 100% know what you want.

 

[Nobody]

  On 7/30/2024 at 8:32 PM, klee said:

........................................................................

 

The shinsa is in September and according to Tsukada San it will take 3 months for the results and to ship.

 

......................................................

 

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She is a little optimistic. It will take more months.

I got a TH paper in Febluary this year in Japan. The blade was submitted to NBTHK in September 2023.

[klee]

Welp registration opened today at 10am and Tsukada San tried to register at 1030 and the shinsa was already full  . So there wont be shinsa after all and we agreed to put the registration money towards a light polish/cleaning by the togishi before shipping.

 

Honestly kinda feels better in a way knowing I wont have to anguish for months waiting for results.