Mumei Tensho Muramasa Blade with Sankozukaken Horimono and JTK Papers

[Zoglet]

While studying Muramasa blades, I recently came across a blade on a Japanese sword auction site (no, not Yahoo Auctions, Aucfree, or anything similar) with JTK paperwork attributing the sword to later generation Muramasa with an age around the Tensho era of Japan. I'm familiar with Tensho Muramasa (sandai), but I am unfamiliar with the reliability of the JTK. Can anyone give any insight on the validity of the blade? THe blade does appear to have tanago-jiri nakago, alongside an o-notare nioiguchi, but I lack knowledge on Muramasa's horimono, alongside the difference between Tensho Muramasa and Sengo Masashige. Any help would be much appreciated!

Sincerely,

Zoglet

PS- If substantiated by the details, please don't snatch up the sword. Finders keepers, and this looks like a stunning blade to me (my partner happens to also love the blade's appearance)
 

[Rivkin]

In most cases after 1980s NBTHK does not paper Muramasa ko waki with a calm periodic notare. Before it was considered a proper Muramasa style but now you can sometimes get NTHK papers on it but NBTHK would require some additional feature to be outstanding. Not this blade.

[mywei]

Would the NBTHK likely paper this to Sengo school instead of Kodai Muramasa?

[BIG]

Zero coke

[Zoglet]

1 hour ago, BIG said:

Zero coke

 

What is that supposed to mean?

[Zoglet]

1 hour ago, mywei said:

Would the NBTHK likely paper this to Sengo school instead of Kodai Muramasa?

 

I've seen swords with Sengo attributions from the NBTHK, but this is the NTK, so this is a whole different animal I do not yet know.

[Zoglet]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

In most cases after 1980s NBTHK does not paper Muramasa ko waki with a calm periodic notare. Before it was considered a proper Muramasa style but now you can sometimes get NTHK papers on it but NBTHK would require some additional feature to be outstanding. Not this blade.

 

What led to the shift, and more importantly, where would that place this blade?

[BIG]

Sorry Nicholas, wrong post..

[Zoglet]

2 minutes ago, BIG said:

Sorry Nicholas, wrong post..

 

No problem. I was just confused, as even if not Muramasa, there are still Sengo school features, which, even if not specifically him, I would be more than satisfied with. Still, thanks for the clarification.

Beste Grüße vom Neuling!

Klaus

[BIG]

Und beste Grüße nach Amerika

[Rivkin]

Unfortunately I don't know if that particular blade papers to Sengo.

I think for Muramasa waki wide notare is out, and for nidai they now require substantial difference within the hamon between its lowest and highest points, midare, but this does not extend to the whole Sengo school.

Nevertheless Sengo attributions are becoming uncommon, and with a long sharp kaeri and notare hamon even with a nakago like this I would believe Shimada is a possibility.

[lonely panet]

i wouldnt look at this and think muramasa.  but have i ever held a muramasa .... no

[Lewis B]

To add another reference point this tanto is NBTHK Hozon due to the Mei being considered gimei. It was attributed to 2nd generation Muramasa by one expert and 1st gen by Tanobe. I guess this is a problem with many of these blades. The Hamon is certainly more  what I would expect from Muramasa. 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

Quote

In most cases after 1980s NBTHK does not paper Muramasa ko waki with a calm periodic notare.

I'd like to have sources confirming what you say

[Zoglet]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

I'd like to have sources confirming what you say

 

I mean, I found a tanto or ko-waki attributed by NBTHK to Sengo School in 2021 with a similar hamon pattern to the one above.
 

 

[Zoglet]

1 hour ago, Lewis B said:

To add another reference point this tanto is NBTHK Hozon due to the Mei being considered gimei. It was attributed to 2nd generation Muramasa by one expert and 1st gen by Tanobe. I guess this is a problem with many of these blades. The Hamon is certainly more  what I would expect from Muramasa. 

 

 

Enlighten me on what you mean? Also, are you referring to the blade you posted or the one I did for your comment on the hamon?

[Lewis B]

9 minutes ago, Zoglet said:

Enlighten me on what you mean? Also, are you referring to the blade you posted or the one I did for your comment on the hamon?

The hamon in the image I posted has what I consider a more typical Muramasa style. 

[Zoglet]

2 hours ago, lonely panet said:

i wouldnt look at this and think muramasa.  but have i ever held a muramasa .... no

 

That's a fair point. Apparently, the 銃砲刀剣研究会 (Gun and Sword Research Society/Juho Touken-Kenkyukai) believes the sword may be Muramasa though, alongside alleged (won't assume they're real or fake) papers by Hon'ami Mitsumi.

[Zoglet]

5 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

The hamon in the image I posted has what I consider a more typical Muramasa style. 

It is true, I have seen more Muramasas or Sengo school pieces with hamon like the one you sent, however, I have seen a few with more peaceful hamon, such as the one from the NMB topic I embedded, so I'm merely saying it deserves further inquiry.

[SteveM]

The group that issued this paper has been mentioned a few times on the board before. 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/search/?q=銃砲刀剣研究会&quick=1

Needless to say, if you owned a Muramasa sword you would want to get it authenticated by the NBTHK. Especially if it were 2020 (when this paper was issued) when it was still super easy to submit swords to the NBTHK. There would be no reason to seek the authentication of any group other than NBTHK...unless you didn't like the NBTHK's judgment. 

[Zoglet]

54 minutes ago, SteveM said:

The group that issued this paper has been mentioned a few times on the board before. 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/search/?q=銃砲刀剣研究会&quick=1

Needless to say, if you owned a Muramasa sword you would want to get it authenticated by the NBTHK. Especially if it were 2020 (when this paper was issued) when it was still super easy to submit swords to the NBTHK. There would be no reason to seek the authentication of any group other than NBTHK...unless you didn't like the NBTHK's judgment. 

That's a fair point. On that note, does anyone know where a current Muramasa can be found outside of the Nihonto.com website and Kyodaioriginals? The cheapest tanto I found under those is $50k.

[Jacques D.]

5 hours ago, Zoglet said:

 

I mean, I found a tanto or ko-waki attributed by NBTHK to Sengo School in 2021 with a similar hamon pattern to the one above.
 

 

I wasn't talking to you, but to Rivkin.

[Zoglet]

2 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

I wasn't talking to you, but to Rivkin.

 

Sorry, I didn't know.

[Jacques D.]

Don't worry 

 

From NBTHK's Oshigata collection

 

 

 

[Zoglet]

3 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Don't worry 

 

From NBTHK's Oshigata collection

 

 

 

Looks peaceful to me.

[Jacques D.]

Another one 

[Lewis B]

^ Thats your archetypical Muramasa hamon. Wouldn't call it 'peaceful'

[Jacques D.]

I'd say there's no typical hamon in Muramasa's work, he quenched in many different forms : notare, notare midare, sanbon-sugi, O-midare, togari gunome, hako midare ( it's posssbile i forget some). 

[Zoglet]

43 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

I'd say there's no typical hamon in Muramasa's work, he quenched in many different forms : notare, notare midare, sanbon-sugi, O-midare, togari gunome, hako midare ( it's posssbile i forget some). 

 

Yeah, that's what I read from this

http://www.nihontome...ticles/Muramasa2.pdf

[Lewis B]

Even so Sengo Muramasa's signature style was hako midare