Help with ura mei

[klee]

Good evening 

 

I was wondering if anyone would be able to identify any characters on the ura side of a nihonto I have.

 

Signed: "Bizen Koku Ju Osafune Kiyomitsu Saku"

 

The ura mei looks like it has been removed carefully a long time ago but I was hoping someone could identify any characters. I know it s a long shot but I figured id ask. Thank you in advance

-Kevin

 

[Jacques]

Normally all swords from Kiyomitsu with a nagamei must have a nengo too (as well all Bizen swords from this period). It seems obvious that the date has been erased, but why, I don't know. Yours comes from AOI art.

 

https://sword-auctio...fune-kiyomitsu-saku/

 

https://www.yamasiro...na/katana/_1567.html

https://bizenya-katana.com/?thoken=備前国住長船清光作

 

 

[klee]

My initial thought (also agreed by other enthusiasts ) was that it was a dated Eisho/Daiei or Tensho but was removed at some point to pass for a work of a more favorable smith i.e Gorozaemon ( Tenbun ) or Magoemon ( Eiroku ) 

 

I have seen nagamei Kiyomitsu/Sukesada without nengo as well so it may have been something entirely different. I guess we ll never know 

[ROKUJURO]

Kevin,

there is a modern scientific method the police uses on guns to make erased item numbers visible again. Perhaps you can get access to it?

[Brian]

Won't work on carved mei, only stamped markings. Plus it's a bit destructive. Deal with renumbering recovered firearms on a regular basis.

[klee]

Hi Jean !

 

That would perfect but I have no idea how to go about accessing it 😅.

 

I do love everything about the blade so the missing ura mei doesnt bother me or anything. Just wish I knew what was there lol

[klee]

  On 7/28/2024 at 8:45 AM, Brian said:

Won't work on carved mei, only stamped markings. Plus it's a bit destructive. Deal with renumbering recovered firearms on a regular basis.

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Thank you Brian ! Good to know

[Jacques]

  Quote

I have seen nagamei Kiyomitsu/Sukesada without nengo

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I would love to see an example. The Osafune Taikan lists 54 Swords signed Kiyomitsu all have a nengo. All Bizen swords with a nagamei and sue koto have a nengo

 

Example below

[mywei]

https://eirakudo.sho...izashi/detail/319916

 

This example doesn't have a nengo

[Jacques]

  On 7/28/2024 at 9:53 AM, mywei said:

https://eirakudo.sho...izashi/detail/319916

 

This example doesn't have a nengo

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It's the same sword

[Bugyotsuji]

If the blade is good and the mei is good, but only the date looks 'wrong' for some reason, then what do you do?

[ROKUJURO]

deleted

[klee]

  On 7/28/2024 at 9:42 AM, Jacques D. said:

 

I would love to see an example. The Osafune Taikan lists 54 Swords signed Kiyomitsu all have a nengo. All Bizen swords with a nagamei and sue koto have a nengo

 

Example below

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Here s a few off the top of my head. Sue Bizen nagamei+nengo is the norm not a set in stone rule.

[klee]

Also I see that we are quickly going off topic as is the norm here lol

 

The original question was not whether this blade had a nengo or not but rather if anyone was able to make out any characters that was removed

[Jacques]

 

Ok your first reference is from the site shoshin which cannot be considered as a very reliable source.

The second is a Sukesada (more 70 Sukesada) and it is obvious that kazu-uchi mono are excluded and I wonder why the literature does not mention this fact, here is what the nihonto Koza (Afu translation) says

[ROKUJURO]

  On 7/28/2024 at 8:45 AM, Brian said:

Won't work on carved mei, only stamped markings. Plus it's a bit destructive. Deal with renumbering recovered firearms on a regular basis.

Expand  

Brian,

the MEI is chiseled with a downward motion, not like cutting in soft metals, so I am not so sure that this impact on a molecular level could not be detected. The method I was thinking of is performed with X rays, so no big damage would occur.

What do you think?

[Brian]

XRay isn't used much, they usually do an acid process. Alternatively, a magnetic particle test that leaves a white residue that is a pain to remove. I'm told the X Ray method isn't reliable enough unless the stamp is deep.
If any of these methods were really good at it, the Japanese would be using them extensively.

[klee]

  On 7/28/2024 at 1:39 PM, Jacques D. said:

 

Ok your first reference is from the site shoshin which cannot be considered as a very reliable source.

The second is a Sukesada (more 70 Sukesada) and it is obvious that kazu-uchi mono are excluded and I wonder why the literature does not mention this fact, here is what the nihonto Koza (Afu translation) says

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This will be my last reply as I refuse to go down the Kazuuchi conversation. The Bishu / Bizen distinction is warped and overblown by western dealers and enthusiasts alike looking for simple answers. So much so that we are quick to dissmiss blades with a quick glance at a low resolution pic

[klee]

  On 7/28/2024 at 9:53 AM, mywei said:

https://eirakudo.sho...izashi/detail/319916

 

This example doesn't have a nengo

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Thank you so much for finding this ! Never thought id come across the same sword on a different site !

[Jacques]

  On 7/28/2024 at 2:32 PM, klee said:

Thank you so much for finding this ! Never thought id come across the same sword on a different site !

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it's very common.  Nagayama doesn't talk about Nengo and his approach is really very/too generalist.

[klee]

This was as far as I could get lol