NBTHK and uchiko

[O koumori]

Hi,

I'm wondering if any members know when -or if- the NBTHK's "Japanese sword care and etiquette" document will be updated with the current thinking about NOT using uchiko?

 

Exquisite Sword Characteristics - NBTHK American Branch (nbthk-ab2.org)

 

Thanks,

Dan K

[Lewis B]

I don't think its ill advised across the board. In fact a sashikomi polish will benefit over time. I got to see a Rai Kunimitsu tanto over the weekend with a Sashikomi finish. Owner says that with repeated uchiko applications it will look better and better and in 100 years it will look its best. Thats quite a commitment.

Ultimately it depends on the style of polish. And of course, only the best quality uchiko should be used.

[DKR]

@Levis B

It was a Rai Kunitsugu Tanto ....not a Kunimitsu. 

Edited July 25 by DKR
Typo

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, DKR said:

@Levis B

It was a Rai Kunitsugu Tanto ....not a Kunimitsu. 

Yes, another attendee kindly corrected my mistake stating it was in fact made by his younger brother Rai Kunitsugu. A spectacular blade.

[Gakusee]

On 7/24/2024 at 2:27 PM, Lewis B said:

 In fact a sashikomi polish will benefit over time. ....  Owner says that with repeated uchiko applications it will look better and better and in 100 years it will look its best.

 

 

This is a misconception and an old belief.  I hear it from time to time from the older generation collector but current thinking is not consistent with that approach.

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

This is a misconception and an old belief.  I hear it from time to time from the older generation collector but current thinking is not consistent with that approach.

 

Actually, it is not. From personal experience, I had an Echizen Rai Kuniyasu that was polished in Japan. Over the first 6 months I followed the polisher's care instructions precisely. Which included using uchiko. Over those 6 months the detail and activity continued becoming more and more vivid. In fact, this sword was shown twice to our study group over that time. Upon which our late friend Arnold Frenzel commented aloud "where did all that ashi come from."

Where indeed! 

 

Now, having said that, I was given very similar care instructions using uchiko for a sword I had polished after that. I've chosen not to follow the uchiko path on this other sword. 

 

Why?

 

Polisher's uchiko will not scratch when used absolutely correctly. However, it will absolutely leave fine scratches if it is not used absolutely correctly. Since I do not trust myself to be using uchiko absolutely correctly over 100% of the sword, I choose not to use it. 

 

Additionally, I've watched two different polishers uchiko my swords and neither one left a scratch on either sword. 

 

In any case, old, new, times are a changing. Microdear cloth and anhydrous alcohol works just fine.

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

[Lewis B]

20 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Microdear

 

 

 

 

Is that the powdered deer antler? I saw this being used at the NBTHK meeting and it did a wonderful job at removing residual oil on the blade. Completely harmless to the blade from what I could see. 

[O koumori]

Is that the powdered deer antler?

 

No, it's a brand of non-woven lens polishing cloth that is safe for Nihonto.

Dan K

[Franco D]

2 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Is that the powdered deer antler?

 

Sorry, Microdear is a cleaning cloth designed for optics. 

[Lewis B]

6 minutes ago, Franco D said:

 

Sorry, Microdear is a cleaning cloth designed for optics. 

Ah OK. I just got an ultrasuede cloth from the All Japan Swordsmiths Association and some microfibre lens cloths for applying oil. Fascinating to see whats out there for safe handling our blades. 

[Mark S.]

I have always operated under the assumption (right or wrong) that the polisher gave me the blade in exactly the condition they meant for it to be in… and there is nothing I can do to make it better and a hell of a lot I can do to make it worse.  I’ve never understood the concept that the polisher expected me to ‘finish’ his polish with uchiko?  I thought that’s what I paid him to do. 
 

Kind of like going to Nobu and asking for extra dipping sauces for a piece of sushi the chef just handed to you.  Nope… he gave it to you EXACTLY the way he wanted you to enjoy it.  

[Franco D]

3 hours ago, Mark S. said:

I have always operated under the assumption (right or wrong) that the polisher gave me the blade in exactly the condition they meant for it to be in… and there is nothing I can do to make it better and a hell of a lot I can do to make it worse.  I’ve never understood the concept that the polisher expected me to ‘finish’ his polish with uchiko?  I thought that’s what I paid him to do. 
 

Kind of like going to Nobu and asking for extra dipping sauces for a piece of sushi the chef just handed to you.  Nope… he gave it to you EXACTLY the way he wanted you to enjoy it.  

 

Mark, none of your comment comes as any surprise. I bet that without even realizing it you've managed to insult as many as two excellent fully trained professional polishers, and perhaps more. I'm just glad that they may never read your insulting words or see your insulting rude mannerism.

As you were.

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

It's a known "fact" that swords reach their optimum state many years after a polish. Not sure if it's because some things tone down a bit or if time or handling plays a part, but maybe it's like furniture or steel, where patina plays a role.
Either way, if in doubt, avoid uchiko. But it does have a role to play if you know how and when, and on what swords. You HAVE to use only the very good stuff, and avoid using it where there are pits or openings, as this is where it leaves "hike" which are those streaks. Too much pressure and getting it into tiny openings is seriously detrimental, and you will end up with lines that look like scratches.

[Alex A]

For me, the risk outweighs any potential reward.

 

Horses for courses as always.

[Rivkin]

Uchiko is dangerous and not needed if one just needs to deoil the blade.

The dangers have been overstated.

Its a good tool to remove spit, small fresh fingerprints and other things which are not uncommon at shows.

It can also be used to purposefully adjust the appearance a bit like softening things like coarse jigane or opening up the gradient within the hamon, if there is no hadori... and I would not use it for such purposes since I lack the understanding.

 

There are polishers who ask for specific "aftercare" regiment, which might include repeated oiling and deoiling with uchiko. Explanations of why vary.

 

[Gakusee]

This is a lengthy topic..... Uchiko 'dulling' of the blade due to the micro abrasions of the powder over time might have been recommended in the 1980s and 1990s on overly brightly polished blades in heavy hadori. The feeling back then among some was that the kesho was so bright, and frankly obfuscating the true hamon, that it had better be toned down by repeated uchiko application. Indeed, people pursued a hybrid appearance between kesho and sashikomi. Again, in the Western world, firstly people did not have much access to a lot of highly qualified and skilled polishers and we were working off what we had, the understanding was inferior to today (ie shiny hadori polish was the way forward, no matter what) and went as far as believing that there was a 'Juyo polish' and 'non-Juyo polish', etc.

All of that resulted in sub-standard or budget-friendly approaches (we have experienced these on this board - if people look back some 6-7 years ago they will find the threads of some promoted polishes which ended in rather pitiable outcomes) with polishes which were just not good enough. 

There are different budgets, different skills and different polishes suitable for different blades (dependent on their age, condition, workmanship and style). A certain mukansa might be appropriate for a certain blade due to his skill or experience, and another might be preferable for another. A sashikomi might work better for a blade but be less suitable to another. A polisher is supposed to give his best to the blade, rather than leave a user to 'improve' his polish. Such statements normally accompany kesho style polishes and serve almost as an excuse. 

I have not been told by a mukansa smith or Tanobe sensei to 'go and apply uchiko for 20 years and then you will see the best result'. 

So, this topic requires much finer understanding of polishing, different styles and methods and the effect of certain stones / uchiko on a blade. 

[Franco D]

44 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

A polisher is supposed to give his best to the blade, rather than leave a user to 'improve' his polish.

 

 

Who said anything about improving the polishers polish? It would take an enormous ego to even suggest such a thought. 

You think that you understand, but you just demonstrated that you don't. 

 

And, Michael, your talk of budgets and different skilled polishes here means what exactly?

Stick it!

[PNSSHOGUN]

How many artists instruct new owners to keep drawing over their pictures in permanent marker, for the best results.....?

[Mark S.]

33 minutes ago, Franco D said:

 

Stick it!

 

Look… I understand you being a prickly character with me because of our political disagreements in another thread, but taking it out on others is in poor form.  

[Gakusee]

46 minutes ago, Franco D said:

And, Michael, your talk of budgets and different skilled polishes here means what exactly?

Stick it!

 

So, Franco it is perfectly natural for a student to charge a different fee to a mukansa smith. That entails different economics but also different skill levels.  Saito san commands the highest prices in Japan because he can rectify polishing disasters or bring swords back to life. A mere deshi might not be able to do that. Polishing time, techniques, expertise and skill deservedly are rewarded with higher fees, which might not be in accordance with everyone's budget. 

 

Even Tsurura san, once upon a time, not so long ago, would differentiate between the different 'levels of polish' - see below (not on his website any more).

 

I hope my 'sticking' of the image below is to your satisfaction?

 

 

 

In reference to the question below:

 

46 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Who said anything about improving the polishers polish? It would take an enormous ego to even suggest such a thought. 

 

My conclusion from the sentence below was that by making the ashi 'more vivid' you had made the polish what you and Arnold perceived to be somehow 'better'. 

16 hours ago, Franco D said:

Over those 6 months the detail and activity continued becoming more and more vivid. In fact, this sword was shown twice to our study group over that time. Upon which our late friend Arnold Frenzel commented aloud "where did all that ashi come from."

 

In other words, you have implied that the initial polish did not show the activities and detail sufficiently (ie, had obfuscated or concealed them to some extent) and your subsequent application of uchiko rectified that situation, so that the latter became more vivid and visible. 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Surely a sword should have a polish that is satisfactory enough after polish without having to attempt to enhance it oneself..

 

 

[Brano]

Uchiko - yes or no is a sensitive topic that is repeated here at regular intervals
Despite the general opinion that uchiko is unnecessary, or even undesirable, I encounter its use both in Japan and outside of Japan
It is always at the discretion and responsibility of the user
From what I heard from a friend who is a togi-shi, the Tokugawa Art museum in Nagoya generally refuses to re-polish their blades and the only way to maintain the blade is uchiko
If anyone passes by, visit this museum - there are always some blades on display, although often not many
I generally agree with the recommendation not to use uchiko, as many of us don't have access to first class uchiko, and we also don't have the skill to use it properly.

However, I disagree that using uchiko will destroy the polish on the blade

[Jacques D.]

•  

 

Quote

It's a known "fact" that swords reach their optimum state many years after a polish.

 

Just a legend. 

Uchiko is abrasive. No need to say any more. In the old days, this was the only way to clean a blade. Nowadays, however, it's no longer an option.

 

I wonder how many people here can describe the difference between sashikomi and hadori.

[Char]

Not to change the subject but in the old days in the show car circuit abrasive was the way now with Technolgy polishing is done with a chemical process to achieve Riddler award status different times in the future?

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

•  

 

 

Just a legend. 

Uchiko is abrasive. No need to say any more. In the old days, this was the only way to clean a blade. Nowadays, however, it's no longer an option.

 

Yeah....I think I tend to believe Japanese experts over you. There is more to this than just "do or don't"
http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/uchiko.html

I'm not advocating for the free use of uchiko either. But it has its place, especially with experts who know how and when.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Nowadays, however, it's no longer an option.

So, please explain why the Japanese (including respected togishi) are using it freely and liberally on many extremely important blades/collections (as per a fairly recent documentary on NHK TV)  Are you saying they don’t know what they are doing? 

[Franco D]

Let's take a step back. First of all, the polish that I have been talking about was a hadori/kesho polish done in the mid 1990's. 

At that time the standard procedure for care of a newly polished sword was oiling > uchiko > reoil > repeated over and over, over the next 6 months.

The polisher obviously knew having carefully and precisely dictated of how to care for the sword over the next coming months exactly what effect the use of uchiko would have on his finish. So, in a sense the final look of his polish was being executed at his direction. However, anyone thinking or believing that the polish wasn't already set needs to have their thinking and understanding examined. 

 

Polishing has evolved since that time. Yes, it's still a hadori/kesho polish/finish. However, this newer form I would describe as a finish that follows the hamon in a more precise manner, and it has the effect of unzipping itself to reveal all when viewed correctly. 

 

When it comes down to selecting a sword for polish and choosing a polisher it makes sense to go with the best possible. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brano]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

•  

 

 

Just a legend. 

Uchiko is abrasive. No need to say any more. In the old days, this was the only way to clean a blade. Nowadays, however, it's no longer an option.

 

I wonder how many people here can describe the difference between sashikomi and hadori.

I believe there are a few people here who know the difference between Kesho-togi and Sashikomi-togi 

 

And yes - I agree - uchiko is abrasive - just like uchigumori - and is just as fine or finer
If you have ever been to a togi-shi workshop, then you have seen how he presses his thumb on the jizuya and how many times he repeats the movement on a certain surface
 And since you are a pragmatic person, you can easily compare the specific pressure when working togi-shi in comparison with using uchiko
If you don't mind meeting other people, we can make an agreement and see each other sometime
I can show you a Tanto on which a new sashikomi polish was made and then applied more than 100x uchiko in the course of one year (it was a kind of "test animal", because I also did not believe that uchiko would not damage the blade as my friend who is a togi-shi told me  )

 

[Gakusee]

26 minutes ago, Brano said:

I believe there are a few people here who know the difference between Kesho-togi and Sashikomi-togi 

 

And yes - I agree - uchiko is abrasive - just like uchigumori - and is just as fine or finer
If you have ever been to a togi-shi workshop, then you have seen how he presses his thumb on the jizuya and how many times he repeats the movement on a certain surface
 And since you are a pragmatic person, you can easily compare the specific pressure when working togi-shi in comparison with using uchiko
If you don't mind meeting other people, we can make an agreement and see each other sometime
I can show you a Tanto on which a new sashikomi polish was made and then applied more than 100x uchiko in the course of one year (it was a kind of "test animal", because I also did not believe that uchiko would not damage the blade as my friend who is a togi-shi told me  )

 

 

 

Brano - you have some amazing swords. And you like sashikomi, as we have discussed with you several times.

Applying uchiko (with the usual caveats: carefully, gently, using the best polisher uchigumori powder you can find etc) on sashikomi polish blades has a lower visual impact (as the website of the Kashima sisters that Brian linked explains) since the approach to the polish is different in the finishing stage. In fact having seen blades that have been uchiko-ed many times, I have noticed that a hadori polish after years of uchiko starts to look more like sashikomi (despite the nugui stage being different). It is the abrasiveness of that powder that 'brings out' artefacts that might not have shown before or could have been hidden in the kesho method. But as we know, the polisher could also achieve that with uchigumori, if he were to keep at the sword - again, it is a matter of time, cost, desire etc. So, I am still of the belief that if the polisher wanted to and had the time (not rushed or pressed by other means), could achieve the 'multiple year of uchiko-ing' effect as part of his initial treatment. This is a contrarian view to the in-house polisher of the sisters (http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/uchiko.html). 

 

I will be curious to see your tanto 'in progress' next time we catch up. In effect, you have continued the sashikomi work of the polisher by using hazuya powder....

[Brano]

14 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

 

 

Brano - you have some amazing swords. And you like sashikomi, as we have discussed with you several times.

Applying uchiko (with the usual caveats: carefully, gently, using the best polisher uchigumori powder you can find etc) on sashikomi polish blades has a lower visual impact (as the website of the Kashima sisters that Brian linked explains) since the approach to the polish is different in the finishing stage. In fact having seen blades that have been uchiko-ed many times, I have noticed that a hadori polish after years of uchiko starts to look more like sashikomi (despite the nugui stage being different). It is the abrasiveness of that powder that 'brings out' artefacts that might not have shown before or could have been hidden in the kesho method. But as we know, the polisher could also achieve that with uchigumori, if he were to keep at the sword - again, it is a matter of time, cost, desire etc. So, I am still of the belief that if the polisher wanted to and had the time (not rushed or pressed by other means), could achieve the 'multiple year of uchiko-ing' effect as part of his initial treatment. This is a contrarian view to the in-house polisher of the sisters (http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/uchiko.html). 

 

I will be curious to see your tanto 'in progress' next time we catch up. In effect, you have continued the sashikomi work of the polisher by using hazuya powder....

My experiment was primarily a test to see if the blade would degrade or not
In fact, I apply uchiko (if used) 2-3 times a year
My attempt corresponds to the application of 30-50 years equivalent and above all it is necessary to realize that it was much more unkind to the blade
Steel slowly oxidizes over time (traditional oil is slightly acidic) and by applying uchiko you remove the surface oxide

After a fresh polish, steel oxidizes faster, so someone recommends applying it more often over a period of several months
I haven't oiled my blades in a while, and even when I did, I first completely removed the oil before applying the uchiko
I repeat - it is essential to use high-quality uchiko and not press on the blade
And you're absolutely right - using uchiko on a blade with a Kesho polish slowly removes/softens the hadori
I don't say - use uchiko
I'm just describing my own experience
And you are always welcome Michael