Lewis B Posted July 21 Report Share Posted July 21 Shocking what is being offered on Ebay. Incomplete papers and a very poorly preserved blade. Also at least one fatal flaw including hagire. Even so, given the name associated with the blade is it cheap enough to forgive its failings? I expect a genuine Saburo Kaneuji in perfect condition to be many times more expensive. Not interested just curious at what point is a blade junk or when is it cheap enough for academic interest to trump condition? https://www.ebay.de/itm/266894998767?itmmeta=01J3BJTMFYCKQJGRRGJYB8CYB6&hash=item3e242e7cef:g:7-IAAOSwM0Jh1VYT&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAAwJA7TmDTEh1DSRy0NJuvSlwus6YIlhdOmHK%2BD%2FLxDROXmtwrFtJuHWVKR0BBjMlLn5f0dKSQKxd9o9i%2FVgTOZbeuT29XDmCIitKD6h7kg4LDci0%2B55EqxN3pbn2LiUSKwwZhvoJas1%2B8b0MKxfY4Y6y4k6EBs9%2BBEdUuIFedq%2BbF%2F8uwtt1LXhpY0QukwUquG7fSnoxr5xliJWvg6bdaGZZ1ptmIAwB46D869hVvcspdreyIjJ0JNDI8iJfNFo6%2Ffg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4LI6vKaZA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted July 21 Report Share Posted July 21 Simple: do not buy anything offered on ebay from Japanese sellers. They think Americans are ... .... and ..., and therefore offer things at random prices that they can't sell in Japan. Case in point - weak Juyo covered head to toe in ware, which recently saw extensive combat against ninja. The extent of damage inflicted on ninja is unknown, but the blade did suffer "what looks like a hagire". 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis B Posted July 21 Author Report Share Posted July 21 15 minutes ago, Rivkin said: Simple: do not buy anything offered on ebay from Japanese sellers. They think Americans are ... .... and ..., and therefore offer things at random prices that they can't sell in Japan. Case in point - weak Juyo which is covered head to toe in ware, which recently saw extensive combat against ninja. The extent of damage inflicted on ninja is unknown, but the blade did suffer "what looks like a hagire". Definitely in need of some TLC and a fresh polish. Seller makes the point that if it was hagire it would not have passed Shinsa. Looks like classic hagire to my eye. What could cause this in the 30 years since its Juyo papers were issued? Perhaps the papers are fake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted July 21 Report Share Posted July 21 5 minutes ago, Lewis B said: Definitely in need of some TLC and a fresh polish. Seller makes the point that if it was hagire it would not have passed Shinsa. Looks like classic hagire to my eye. What could cause this in the 30 years since its Juyo papers were issued? Perhaps the papers are fake? Aside from Bizen koto blades are unpredictable. They can hagire from falling on the floor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bray Posted July 22 Report Share Posted July 22 4 hours ago, Lewis B said: What could cause this in the 30 years since its Juyo papers were issued? My father bought what he thought was a WW2 sword from a store in Ireland back in the early 70's. He gave it to me 13 years ago and I was happy to see what I believed to be a Nambokucho tachi but the condition was too poor to judge further. Happiness was short lived as I found a large hagire. Turns out that he used it for a short period to chop firewood...hit a knot in the wood, straightened out the sori and thought a reverse strike on the mune would fix the problem. Sori came back but probably caused the hagire. But it seemed to be a good sword so I dragged it across to Japan when I was going to the DTI and had Ikeda-san polish a window in it. He confirmed the Nambokucho call and thought Aoe based on the window and wanted to polish it completely but my funds wouldn't allow that. He also found a second hagire... So if the sword had been papered when my dad bought it, that would answer your question. Here's the sword - 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted July 22 Report Share Posted July 22 From my understanding blades with important historical connections or provenance can be awarded Juyo, despite serious flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis B Posted July 22 Author Report Share Posted July 22 2 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said: From my understanding blades with important historical connections or provenance can be awarded Juyo, despite serious flaws. This gets to the nub of my question and the reason I posted the link. Would the fatal flaw like hagire be noted in the papers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted July 22 Report Share Posted July 22 Juyo swords can have fatal flaws. I do not know whether or not a fatal flaw will be noted in the origami. When it comes to nihonto it's never easy. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis B Posted July 22 Author Report Share Posted July 22 So Kirill's suggestion that these Ebay sellers are preying on the ignorance of Western buyers may not be altogether correct. The Kaneuji might have been lucky that session and passed Juyo even with hagire. Perhaps the Japanese buyer is less informed and is missing out on a great opportunity to pickup a bargain basement Masamune juttetsu swordmaker blade. The lack of complete Juyo Zufu origami is a bit of a red flag though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Ekholm Posted July 22 Report Share Posted July 22 It was Jūyō sword but in current state with hagire I don't think it would pass even Hozon shinsa. I checked the Jūyō 23 book and the item is featured there. One or two times from shady sellers from Japan there have been faked Jūyō book entries with the items. Japanese swords are not too tough in general so someone might have dropped it to the floor etc. and that might have resulted in hagire. Even though there has been lots of criticism by some towards the few sessions in 2X Jūyō shinsa where lots of items passed, I am pretty sure they would not let this sword pass with hagire like that. I feel the item in current state would be extremely low value, what keeps the price so high is the old Jūyō paper. I remember Darcy and few others were forming a theory you can find some good older posts about it. In short it would generally be summarized that a Jūyō sword would have minimum price of X - just because it is a Jūyō, regardless of the actual quality of the item. So even though the item in eBay post in current state to me would be almost worthless, the seller still is asking for Jūyō price for it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted July 22 Report Share Posted July 22 Sword with hagire has almost zero value as an artistic sword, at least that's how its perceived. It can be enhanced by making it into a wakizashi without hagire, but they often hagire in the upper portion, so that's seldom an enticing option. It can pass Juyo only on the basis of historical value. Which is hardly associated with a mumei Nambokucho blade with better than average attribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted July 23 Report Share Posted July 23 Read the comment by Clive Sinclaire, he's right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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