Kamakura Period Kodachi with Sayagaki by Hon'ami Nishu

[Zoglet]

After some time, I was finally able to get my hands on a kodachi (yay!) and I'm excited to show it! 

 

[Rivkin]

Thank you, does it have papers?

[Zoglet]

 

7 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Thank you, does it have papers?

 

Going to send it in for shinsa as soon as I can. The sword's sayagaki highlights that the sword originally had origami from Hon'ami Nariaki, but those seem to be lost to history. Until I can send for shinsa, I've been using comparisons of the same mei on museum and shrine swords, alongside comparisons of the hamon, hada, and measuremenrs of other swords to make a judgement. As soon as I can, the sword will be sent for a polish and judgement.

[Rivkin]

Thank you. Offering unsolicited advice is a bit rude, but I personally would send it as is without additional polish.

Unless the photographed areas are the only places where something is seen.

Because strictly personally, I feel there are issues here.

[Zoglet]

2 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Thank you. Offering unsolicited advice is a bit rude, but I personally would send it as is without additional polish.

Unless the photographed areas are the only places where something is seen.

Because strictly personally, I feel there are issues here.

 

Sent the photos here with discrepancies specifically due to the imperfections there, although, will try to get better photos once my incandescent lights come in.

[Zoglet]

If you'd like, here are some photos from the original seller.



 

[Rivkin]

Thank you. Again admitting the rudeness of unsolicited opinions, but:

sugata may look a bit off, but in deep theory it can be late Kamakura kodachi... 

the attribution can't be made with such pictures alone... suguha notare hamon in nioi with ashi, theoretically can be ko choji, but the jigane is a bit crude with large features. This does not work well with what looks like Norimune(?) signature.

Unfortunately Kamakura Norimune is also big enough claim it would have been checked many times...

Honami Nishu was unfortunately good at polish, bad at kantei.

[Zoglet]

8 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Thank you. Again admitting the rudeness of unsolicited opinions, but:

sugata may look a bit off, but in deep theory it can be late Kamakura kodachi to say Mihara or Enju, without checking the boshi. Which does not work well with what looks like Norimune(?) signature.

Unfortunately Kamakura Norimune is also big enough claim it would have been checked many times...

Honami Nishu was unfortunately good at polish, bad at kantei.

 

Thanks a lot for your input! Can't wait to see what shinsa says, but love to learn more. Curious to what you mean however by "checked many times." Very sorry to criticize, but the wording was a little bit awkward there. Could you please explain what you meant?

[Rivkin]

No problem, were this unsigned, with no sayagaki, from a provincial seller in Japan preferably from its western or northern provinces, a solid chance its something few people looked at.

Signed, sayagakied, major name, no papers whatsoever - that's strange.

[Zoglet]

3 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

No problem, were this unsigned, with no sayagaki, from a provincial seller in Japan preferably from its western or northern provinces, a solid chance its something few people looked at.

Signed, sayagakied, major name, no papers whatsoever - that's strange.

True. Despite that, I found a Fukuoka Ichimonji kodachi from Kencho era Norifusa with the same blade shape, so, until paperwork is here, I guess anything's possible.

[Brano]

I would say sugata is obvious Sakizori and I would go much later than Mid Kamakura
BTW - works by Norimune are almost a unicorn
Just one single Tokubetsu Juyo blade and a few JuBi/JuBun/Kokuho

 

[Zoglet]

18 minutes ago, Brano said:

I would say sugata is obvious Sakizori and I would go much later than Mid Kamakura
BTW - works by Norimune are almost a unicorn
Just one single Tokubetsu Juyo blade and a few JuBi/JuBun/Kokuho

 

 

I getcha. Where would you put it?

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

Unfortunately Kamakura Norimune is also big enough claim it would have been checked many times...

 

 

I think this is an understatement. Ichimonji Norimune is not just big but it is extremely big. He is the founder of the Ichimonji school ie Fukuoka so this would be as big as it gets in terms of “discovery”. So, yes, if it came from the West or even Japan - it would likely have been tried for papers……
 

Indeed here we cannot see if behind the suguha kesho polish one can find the kochoji that are expected. 
 

What however does not look promising is the mei. The space between the kodachi kanji is too wide and the sizing given the proportions of the nakago do not seem right. Attached are images of genuine Norimune. More compact, tighter together etc. 
The nakago would have probably been a bit slimmer too….

 

[Zoglet]

19 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

 

I think this is an understatement. Ichimonji Norimune is not just big but it is extremely big. He is the founder of the Ichimonji school ie Fukuoka so this would be as big as it gets in terms of “discovery”. So, yes, if it came from the West or even Japan - it would likely have been tried for papers……
 

Indeed here we cannot see if behind the suguha kesho polish one can find the kochoji that are expected. 
 

What however does not look promising is the mei. The space between the kodachi kanji is too wide and the sizing given the proportions of the nakago do not seem right. Attached are images of genuine Norimune. More compact, tighter together etc. 
The nakago would have probably been a bit slimmer too….

 

Let me try to get you close up photos of the Hamon. Additionally, I tried to make comparisons with as many Norimune mei as I could get, and I found one with a similar gap. Not trying to challenge your wisdom, just sharing the research I've also been trying to do. Please enlighten me.

[Rivkin]

Personally I would no be too concerned with any signature. These things are rare enough, if the signature is even 100% mismatch, it can still be unlisted later generation or unrelated lineage.

It just needs to look like a true Kamakura item.

 

But I think this is potentially something quite uncommon - purposefully made fake.

Everything is a bit off - the nakago, patina's behavior around the edges, sugata. Forging looks koto but has late Muromachi roughness, a few other things. 

Everything sort of tries to be Kamakura, but does not reach there. Judging by the forging and how nakago is constructed it can be late Muromachi.

 

I've been burned many times buying blades in Japan and ultimately my success rate in buying unpapered blades there was consistently high only in a few (well, two) locations.

Both had no shinkansen and it took about 14 hours to get to Tokyo by train/airplane.

And even in these cases a strong contributing factor was the local guru having unusual kantei habits.

 

Every single unpapered blade in Tokyo itself will pass so many hands....

Sometimes one gets lucky if its signed and somebody who is greatly respected was the first to look at it and said its obvious fake, and it turned out its probably not, but its exceptionally rare.

Usually if there is one person among ten who says "it can be real Kamakura", it will go to NBTHK.

[Zoglet]

13 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Personally I would no be too concerned with any signature. These things are rare enough, if the signature is even 100% mismatch, it can still be unlisted later generation or unrelated lineage.

 

But I think this is potentially a not too common an item - purposefully made fake.

Everything is a bit off - the nakago, patina's behavior around the edges, sugata. Forging looks koto but has late Muromachi roughness, a few other things. 

Everything sort of tries to be Kamakura, but does not reach there. Judging by the forging and how nakago is constructed it can be late Muromachi.

 

I've been burned many times buying blades in Japan and ultimately my success rate in buying unpapered blades there was consistently high only in a few (well, two) locations.

Both had no shinkansen and it took about 14 hours to get to Tokyo by train/airplane.

And even in these cases a strong contributing factor was the local guru having unusual kantei habits.

 

Every single unpapered blade in Tokyo itself will pass so many hands....

Sometimes one gets lucky if its signed and somebody who is greatly respected was the first to look at it and said its obvious fake, and it turned out its probably not, but its exceptionally rare.

Usually if there is one person among ten who says "it can be real Kamakura", it will go to NBTHK.

 

So, what would that say then about the Nishu sayagaki?

[Rivkin]

3 minutes ago, Zoglet said:

 

So, what would that say then about the Nishu sayagaki?

 

He was BAD at kantei. Good side - nobody fakes his sayagaki.

[Zoglet]

Thank you so much for your time. Guessing at this point the blade is kind of worthless?

[Rivkin]

2 minutes ago, Zoglet said:

Thank you so much for your time. Guessing at this point the blade is kind of worthless?

 

Definitive answer can be provided by shinsa.

Guessing based on such photographs is hard, but to me it would have a value consistent with probably a late Muromachi fake, which was valued by some people as the original.

 

 

[Zoglet]

22 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

 

Definitive answer can be provided by shinsa.

Guessing based on such photographs is hard, but to me it would have a value consistent with probably a late Muromachi fake, which was valued by some people as the original.

 

 

The one thing that still has me confused, however, is that the sayagaki mentions previous origami at some point by Hon'ami Nariaki which supports the Norimune attribution.

Sorry I'm asking so many questions. Just want to learn more as I go.

[Rivkin]

Without seeing the actual Honami origami its very hard to say what information it provided.

Generally, I am not familiar with Nariaki papers. With Honami 90% of first tier paper appraisals come from Kochu or his son. They wrote a lot, they were usually correct. They are also the most faked writers by a long shot.

 

Everyone else is hit and miss. Some are much better than average, others are not.

[Zoglet]

So, I got the measurements for the sword. Is there anything that can be said from them?

Nagasa: 50.5 cm
Sori: 1.3 cm (from kissaki to hamachi) 1.58 cm (from kissaki to kurijiri nakago)

Motohaba: 2.54 cm

Kissaki: 2.85 cm

Sakihaba: 1.58 cm

Motokasane: 0.47 cm

Sakikasane: 0.3 cm

Tsukurikomi: Shinogi Zukuri with Iori Mune

 

[French nihonto]

What can we say about it? The blade is very thin. Sakikasane of 0.3cm. Not necessarily useful to tell if it's kamakura or not. But one thing's for sure, I'd think twice before polishing a blade that thin again.

[Zoglet]

2 minutes ago, French nihonto said:

What can we say about it? The blade is very thin. Sakikasane of 0.3cm. Not necessarily useful to tell if it's kamakura or not. But one thing's for sure, I'd think twice before polishing a blade that thin again.

 

I getcha. Just thought it'd be some help to have the numbers. Sorry.

[Zoglet]

Hey, sorry I didn't put this up earlier, but thanks for putting up with my endless questions. It means a lot! Kinda new to the whole nihonto thing (was surprised with this sword by my dad as a graduation gift and I wanted to learn more about it). Can't wait to learn even more!

[Gakusee]

10 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

He was BAD at kantei. Good side - nobody fakes his sayagaki.

Wrong 

His sayagaki were faked. 

[Gakusee]

With a name like Norimune, you do stand up and pay attention to the mei. It does not make any sense not to. 
 

You look in order to immediately identify if it could theoretically be THE Norimune. Because then you have hit the lottery. 

Of course it goes without saying that the workmanship needs to support the mei…..I am not even going into that. 
 

Since here we are only really provided proper images of the nakago, that is why we are talking about it. The bottom end of the nakago is shaped and proportioned like a Muromachi Bizen nakago, which is somewhat inconsistent with other “kijimomo” proportions. I am not convinced about the mei etc.
 

indeed it could be some other, unidentified Norimune Bizen smith…. 
 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Ubu with 50cm nagasa and kamakura does not fit together for me. 
 

[Gakusee]

23 minutes ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Ubu with 50cm nagasa and kamakura does not fit together for me. 
 

Per se not an issue. 
I have owned two kodachi from the 1240-1260 period, both Bizen den. The one I have sold was papered, had the mei remaining at the tip of the tang and was 57cm long. I think originally it would have been a 65cm or so kodachi. 
The other one (still with me) is smaller, ubu, zaimei, papered and nagasa is 49cm. 
 

So we cannot discount it on the basis of length alone. Should be investigated further. 

[Zoglet]

6 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Per se not an issue. 
I have owned two kodachi from the 1240-1260 period, both Bizen den. The one I have sold was papered, had the mei remaining at the tip of the tang and was 57cm long. I think originally it would have been a 65cm or so kodachi. 
The other one (still with me) is smaller, ubu, zaimei, papered and nagasa is 49cm. 
 

So we cannot discount it on the basis of length alone. Should be investigated further. 

 

So, with the belief that the sword is mid to late Muromachi, would the sword still even be a kodachi, or something else? Furthermore, if it's no issue, do you have any photos of these kodachi? Just would like some references for later purchases, if okay. Thank you so much for your wisdom!