Stamped numbers on habaki

[ottou812]

I know that stamped numbers on the habaki means that the sword in question is most likely a fake. The numbers that appear on this particular habaki looks different that the ones on a typical gunto fakes. This habaki was on a wakazashi with matching fittings (tsuba, saya and fk). Perhaps someone put a different habaki on this particular wak. The habaki fit the wak pretty well so it got me thinking. Maybe the wak is a chinese fake. Looking at the blade itself makes me think it's not a chinese fake. I will post pictures of the wak with the koshirae later in the another thread.

 

[Brian]

Doesn't look like the usual fake's numbers. This looks like it was stamped by someone, much later for some reason, and I expect the sword will be genuine.

That said, we don't have much to go on, and I doubt whether anyone can judge a shoshin blade from a fake by the habaki just yet :lol:

 

Brian

[ottou812]

I've posted some pictures of the wakizashi and the fittings on another thread.

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6498&p=50981#p50981

[Bruce Pennington]

I know this is mentioned in some scattered threads, but I came across another habaki with stamped numbers on a legit Type 98, found in the Cox/Toki article on Seki Toki Swordsmiths.

[Bruce Pennington]

From this thread: Unknown Shingunto Sword

[Bruce Pennington]

A new one thanks to Infinite_Wisdumb: 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Thanks Bruce!  Here is a link to the auction for the sword in question

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/96591595_possibly-wwii-army-officer-Japanese-shin-gunto-sword

 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Interesting it has the same Fuchi as the ones above...

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

same Fuchi as the ones above...

 

Jesse,

Thanks for the link.  This one is TRYING to look like the ones above, i.e. Army fuchi, but failed badly.  Now I don't know what to think about this one.  I knew the habaki looked crude, from the beginning.  At best, this is something made in China during the war, late in the war.  We have been dealing with the topic for some time.  Without better pics of the blade and nakago, it's impossible to say if this falls into that group or is just fakery. (pics posted to save for future when auction site is lost)

 

 

[Shamsy]

Here is my sword with numbered habaki

[Bruce Pennington]

On 1/20/2021 at 2:00 PM, Shamsy said:

my sword with numbered habaki

What's that on, Steve, a Rinji?

[Shamsy]

Here are some pictures @Bruce Pennington

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Shamsy said:

some pictures

Thanks Steve!  Added to my files.  It's the first on I have in the survey from a Type 95.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

another one.  Whats the stamp on the tang for?  Chinese reproduction blade?

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

1 hour ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

another one.  Whats the stamp on the tang for?  Chinese reproduction blade?

This is an arsenal mark but I dont recognize it

[Shamsy]

9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Steve!  Added to my files.  It's the first on I have in the survey from a Type 95.

 

While I would love to say this was some unique or missing model of Type 95, Bruce, I think it would be more accurate to lump it with the generic 'catch-all' term 'Island sword'.

 

When I removed the handle, the nakago was quite mutilated. It initially looks well made and possibly Japanese in make along with file marks... but a few inches down there is damage, de-lamination and large hammer strike marks. It may be a repaired blade?

 

It did have matching numbers to the habaki stamped on the nakago, 21.

I'll post a new thread for discussion rather than hijack this one.

[Bruce Pennington]

48 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

arsenal mark

Jesse,

I'd have to see more of the blade and nakago to comment.  The mark is really a mess, but sort of looks like numbers - 1 6 6 or 2 6 - something like that.  I doubt it's an arsenal mark.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Jesse,

I'd have to see more of the blade and nakago to comment.  The mark is really a mess, but sort of looks like numbers - 1 6 6 or 2 6 - something like that.  I doubt it's an arsenal mark.

another shot @Bruce Pennington

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

another shot

That didn't work!  Must have tried to copy/paste the photo?  Sometimes that doesn't work right, don't know why.  Have to use the upload function when that happens.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

@Bruce Pennington

 

you are right! pasted it

[Bruce Pennington]

The saya fits the late-war navy pattern, late-war in general as here is a late-war army gunto with the same setup HERE.  The tsuka looks old, can't speak to the tsuba, but civil.  I want to say it's a civil sword re-fitted with late-war navy military, but that nakago is crude.  The Chinese have a habit of marking the nakago with a single kanji and stamping numbers on the habaki.  While this could be fakery, I'm still leaning toward a late-war navy re-fit, possibly with a blade made in occupied lands.

 

Can you give us a full-length, naked blade and close-ups of blade tip and a shot of the hamon?

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

16 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The saya fits the late-war navy pattern, late-war in general as here is a late-war army gunto with the same setup HERE.  The tsuka looks old, can't speak to the tsuba, but civil.  I want to say it's a civil sword re-fitted with late-war navy military, but that nakago is crude.  The Chinese have a habit of marking the nakago with a single kanji and stamping numbers on the habaki.  While this could be fakery, I'm still leaning toward a late-war navy re-fit, possibly with a blade made in occupied lands.

 

Can you give us a full-length, naked blade and close-ups of blade tip and a shot of the hamon?

attached @Bruce Pennington - best i got

[Bruce Pennington]

Wartime polish.  Looks Japanese to me.  Reminds me of my late-war Type 95 in workmanship.  An honest effort, but likely rushed.  I wish I knew blade terms, but that line that runs down the side, isn't precise.  My 95 blade is that way.

 

I dropped the kanji on the nakago on the Translation Help Forum, to see if it's identifiable.

 

There was a heroic, and honestly hard to comprehend, push in '44 and '45 to drastically increase sword production.  Here's a chart on just Type 95 production.  We know that Allied bombing had taken a huge toll on mainland sword production and so the industry was pushed into occupied China and other places.  So imagine these "offshore" shops who weren't prepared anything like the mainland shops for such a demand, being asked to produce MORE blades than the mainland shops had ever produced!  On top of that, the Army loosened quality control standards in an effort meet the demand.

This blade and gunto rig doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Thanks @Bruce Pennington

Im going to pass on this piece.  Too many questions.

Jesse

[Bruce Pennington]

Here’s an unusually large number on a legit civil sword converted for the war:

 

 

found Here.

[Bruce Pennington]

 

another

[Brian]

Which I regard as highly dubious.

[vajo]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Here’s an unusually large number on a legit civil sword converted for the war:

 

 

found Here.

 

For me it is a replacement fake habaki and saya. The sword looks assembled together from parts. The story sounds nonsense to me like the most storys about captured bring back swords and then they lying around in the garage. But i understand that everyones grandfather was a hero.

 

Now that trophy is in a cruel condition. Dirty with a lot of fingertips. 

 

 

 

[Dave R]

 I was going to post elsewhere, but thought it more relevant here. In Western armies officers bought their swords privately, and NCO's had them issued, and the two types are distinctive and separate, but....

Officers swords for the (British) Imperial Indian Army sometimes turn up with the stamps and numbers seen on NCO swords. The best guess among collectors is that these are swords bought in bulk by the administration, and then issued or sold to native Indian Officers who could not buy their swords directly for one reason or another. I suggest that stamped habaki on genuine Shin Gunto possibly have a similar story behind them.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Found another on another NCR sword, posted by @Jon MB HERE.

Interesting that it is just 6 numbers away from the 693 habaki shown above.  Also interesting is the blade is Japanese smith Kanekado fitted by a Chinese company (obviously working under the Japanese).