Thoughts On This Japanese Helmet

[cagedfalcon]

Hello, 

First post.

I've had this in my military collection for a few years now. I think it's time to find out more about it if I could. 

It was in a room where a fire had broke out, so there is damage.

 

Thanks in advance, Paul 

 

 

[cagedfalcon]

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[Bugyotsuji]

My initial impression Paul,  is that this is a late revival piece that has seen better days. Since the bare bones and decorations generally follow the remit for O-yoroi hoshi kabuto, and after the fire nothing is hidden from sight,  it could make a good study piece for labelling the names of individual kabuto parts.

[cagedfalcon]

24 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

My initial impression Paul,  is that this is a late revival piece that has seen better days. Since the bare bones and decorations generally follow the remit for O-yoroi hoshi kabuto, and after the fire nothing is hidden from sight,  it could make a good study piece for labelling the names of individual kabuto parts.

Piers, thank you. I never been told so politely that something was a fake. 

Is there reference online or on the forum as to what it would look like? Might be fun to try to restore the pre-fire condition 

 

 

Thanks, Paul 

[uwe]

Hello and welcome, Paul!

 

It might be not a fake in the true sense. Due to the fire damage, judging the age of this piece remains difficult. What Piers was trying to say is that this piece is a reminiscence of the old daienzan-kabuto, which are dating back to the “glorious old days”. That said, it could be made late Edo or Meiji or also in the Taishō era (or even later). Hard to tell as mentioned above…

[cagedfalcon]

32 minutes ago, uwe said:

Hello and welcome, Paul!

 

It might be not a fake in the true sense. Due to the fire damage, judging the age of this piece remains difficult. What Piers was trying to say is that this piece is a reminiscence of the old daienzan-kabuto, which are dating back to the “glorious old days”. That said, it could be made late Edo or Meiji or also in the Taishō era (or even later). Hard to tell as mentioned above…

UWE, Thank you for clarification. 

Would better pic of the visor help date it....maybe? 

 

Regards Paul 

[uwe]

Let’s try!

[Bugyotsuji]

Apologies! As Uwe says above!

See some of these.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=70bcee09bc372401&sca_upv=1&hl=en-gb&q=星兜大鎧&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0Aa4sjWe7Rqy32pFwRj0UkWd8nbOJfsBGGB5IQQO6L3J_86uWOeqwdnV0yaSF-x2jo6Ttnu6iRjjgGjARfLolnBYg2tMdxbJFpG2a0dg6n0NSOUeL_Zp-ANwJjueSBq_UoE1Rqmx1qtxWQlddKd0bEv4-fvXrL1UXtmb7rYJIBkr79X849_zmlFz-2AGdL47Zwhhols&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzwsXokrGHAxVRVEEAHZ7mDGkQtKgLegQIDBAB&biw=390&bih=663&dpr=3

[cagedfalcon]

Yes, a lit of similarities, but mine isn't that elaborate. 

Here are some close ups of areas I thought might help to date it.

 Missed rivets, center kuwagata construction & details. The detail of the mums.

I'm just trying to look at it objectively as I would with anything I know nothing about.

 

Hope this will help. Paul 

@bugyotsiji

@uwe

 

 

 

[cagedfalcon]

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[Henri]

I am pretty sure that this helmet is a modern replica meaning after the Edo period. I have seen similar ones throughout Japan.  The fittings are a particular style that is cast for that company.  The rivet heads are modern nails which are used to facilitate riveting.  It seems that these  were made quite a while back from Meiji until the 20th century using the same forms and molds.  It is still quite a nice fun piece though.  I hope this information helps.

[cagedfalcon]

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9 hours ago, Henri said:

I am pretty sure that this helmet is a modern replica meaning after the Edo period............from the Meiji until the 20th century using the same forms and molds.  It is still quite a nice fun piece though.  I hope this information helps.

Henri, 

Yes, any info is helpful. The Meiji period is a very narrow window, 1868-1912, but it could have been made outside of that period too.

The visor was loose when recieved. Would it hurt it's value,  if it has any, to use a carding brush to clean it up? Carding brushes are very soft/fine SS use in the blueing process in gun restoration/making. I use the hand & or wheel version as needed for minor corrosion removal on my military collection as needed.

Everyone,  please let me know your thoughts on a cleaning rather then a restoration. 

 

Paul

[uwe]

13 hours ago, Henri said:

I am pretty sure that this helmet is a modern replica meaning after the Edo period. I have seen similar ones throughout Japan.  The fittings are a particular style that is cast for that company.  The rivet heads are modern nails which are used to facilitate riveting.  It seems that these  were made quite a while back from Meiji until the 20th century using the same forms and molds.  It is still quite a nice fun piece though.  I hope this information helps.

Looking at the last pictures, I can agree 👍 

[Bugyotsuji]

Perhaps Henri is thinking of Marutake Sangyo in Kyushu. From those photos it looks as though it has been rebuilt for some reason as some 'byo' rivet positions have changed.

 

As to cleaning, my gut feeling is that the remnants of the metallic decoration would be removed, so yes indeed, a very soft brush, or perhaps there is some magic liquid that it could be gently dipped into???

[Henri]

On 7/19/2024 at 4:47 AM, cagedfalcon said:

Henri, 

Yes, any info is helpful. The Meiji period is a very narrow window, 1868-1912, but it could have been made outside of that period too.

The visor was loose when recieved. Would it hurt it's value,  if it has any, to use a carding brush to clean it up? Carding brushes are very soft/fine SS use in the blueing process in gun restoration/making. I use the hand & or wheel version as needed for minor corrosion removal on my military collection as needed.

Everyone,  please let me know your thoughts on a cleaning rather then a restoration. 

 

Paul

My opinion would be to leave it as a relic.  Many collecteurs of such antiquities like them to appear as “au jus” in the juices as they say   even though it is a more recent antique it looks the part.   If such an item was mine, I would make a very nice  wood display stand that is special for it and display it as is.  Cleaning of course, is recommended, such as dust and other particles which could damage the natural patina.  Alcohol removes dirt well, and evaporates quick. If may make the surface look dry though. 

[Henri]

On 7/19/2024 at 9:03 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Perhaps Henri is thinking of Marutake Sangyo in Kyushu. From those photos it looks as though it has been rebuilt for some reason as some 'byo' rivet positions have changed.

 

As to cleaning, my gut feeling is that the remnants of the metallic decoration would be removed, so yes indeed, a very soft brush, or perhaps there is some magic liquid that it could be gently dipped into???

One interesting thing that I have noticed about these helmets, is that even though many of the parts are pressed and cast, they still must be assembled by hand.  I frequently have seen re-aligned rivet holes on these items. Maybe it is because they changed their helmet style, or the worker picked up a plate for a different helmet, or they ran out?  Who knows… but it is actually common.  

Yes, marutake is still a produced of most of the modern items.   Iron mountain, parts made in China, is often used to make fakes by shady dealers…. same as paul chen was years ago.  This helmet I think was made by a different place that is no longer in business but I may be mistaken.  

 

I agree here, be careful with cleaning, but a light coating of oil will probably darken the patina and preserve it as is preventing further rust. do a test area first to make sure you like the result.