kizu: help for a blade

[Matsunoki]

3 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

I thought it was the swordsmiths artistic expression and/or a way reducing the weight of the blade.

Bohi and other horimono were carved for a variety of reasons one of which was definitely to hide something nasty. Other reasons did include blade lightening, artistic expression, request of customer etc etc.

[sc72]

 

I bought this, my first katana (even if without hozon) because I liked it and knowing that the signature could be fake (many are) but at least the blade is decent. Thank you and any comments are welcome

[Franco D]

3 hours ago, sc72 said:

Here are some "kizu" on my katana. I would like your analysis

 

The boshi looks to be sliver thin and the shape of the kissaki reworked which points to having previously been damaged. That in addition to the other flaws already being discussed. Shinto swords should be signed, ubu, with no flaws from a collectible perspective.

 

Regards

 

[sc72]

In my case does Bo-hi have to be to hide something?

it wouldn't have hidden it well here

...anyway who can say if something came before or after?

[Matsunoki]

2 minutes ago, sc72 said:

In my case does Bo-hi have to be to hide something?

No, it isn’t definite that it was to hide anything…..but it is possible. No way of knowing. Could be original and simply that polishing has revealed core steel. Doesn’t look serious, bohi often have assorted “features”. 

[sc72]

Thanks Franco

[Franco D]

14 minutes ago, sc72 said:

In my case does Bo-hi have to be to hide something?

 

Possibly.

Is this bohi ato bori?

How much has this sword been polished down?

The answers will/may shed light on the history of this sword.

 

Regards

 

p.s. prego, niente

[Gilles]

Colin said all about carved BOHI.

[Shugyosha]

Can be those things too but hi and horimono can be used as a means of hiding flaws. Obviously the “flaw” near the ha has gone away so I’d get on with enjoying your new blade. 
 

Sorry, missed some posts there…Colin and Giles covered it. 

[sc72]

Tanks to all

[sabiji]

The appearance in the bohi is, as Colin already wrote, an effect of the weld seam caused by the blade construction (Kawagane/Shingane). Something like this is more common in Bohi. For me, it is only cosmetic.

 

The bohi is kaki toshi. It runs completely through the tang. The signature of Toshinaga is oriented at the edge of the hi and the makuri of the tagane move minimally into the area of the hi. Toshinaga usually places his mei in the middle of the shinogi of the nakago. If the blade is shoshin, the hi cannot be atobori. If it is Gimei, the Hi is placed first and then the signature.

 

Such continuous hi are found much more frequently in the Shinshinto period, because utsushi were often made here. It is somewhat reminiscent of a Yamashiro utsushi. Nevertheless, the blade can of course originate from the Shinto period.

 

I have my difficulties with the frequently held opinion that horimono and hi were applied specifically to cover or eliminate flaws. There may certainly have been, but it only makes sense if there is only one unsightly spot on an otherwise flawless blade. 

 

Removing outer layers when applying horimono or hi may remove or conceal superficial kizu, but it also risks exposing deeper flaws.

 

And another point: Hi and Horimono were expensive! Markus Sesko once demonstrated this using the example of an original invoice for a blade from Chounsai Tsunatoshi. The horimono was more expensive than the blade itself. Well, a dragon and ken were cut on one side of Tsunatoshi's blade, but even well-made bohi will not have been cheap. 

 

The other small spot looks like there was a small charcoal or slag inclusion here.

 

By the way: nice ji-nie!

[Alex A]

The flaws are not bad at all.

 

With regards the one in the bo-hi, its nothing.  

 

CANT EXPECT ALL ANTIQUE SWORDS TO BE PERFECT

 

Doubt the bo-hi was added to hide a flaw

 

Cant polish everything away and take steel of antique blades just because we don't like the odd little mark etc.

 

Horses for courses though.

 

Main thing is that sellers disclose issues

 

[Franco D]

It is difficult to imagine that any sword smith would sign a sword with so many problems as this sword has. Give that some careful thought.

Regardless of which came first the chicken or the cracked eggs, this sword has been monkeyed with and not for the better. 

 

Regards

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Franco D said:

with so many problems as this sword has.

 

1 hour ago, Franco D said:

this sword has been monkeyed with and not for the better. 

Franco, be interested to hear what you see  as problems and where it has been monkeyed with. Thanks.  Colin

[Franco D]

Colin, 

 

After having gone back over all the images again, there isn't a single image that doesn't show problems/flaws. 

Fatal flaws? No. But certainly not acceptable for this sword. Even the surface of the sword is showing signs of being over polished. 

That, and for me this alternate shaped kissaki should be considered a flaw. Plus, the bo-hi - mei , looks to me like somebody has definitely been monkeying around there. Either the mei was added or the bo-hi. One would have to look carefully to see how the edge of where the mei and bo-hi come together look. Which came first? It's not even clear to me that this entire sword wasn't made with the intention of fooling.

 

But, I could be completely wrong. 

 

Regards

 

Don't be  a pink paper Japanese sword collector!

 

[Matsunoki]

38 minutes ago, Franco D said:

After having gone back over all the images again, there isn't a single image that doesn't show problems/flaws. 

Franco….see the very first post. The images are clearly stated to show just flaws. So we should not be surprised that all images show flaws🙂 I’m sure it would be possible to take images that make the blade look flawless but the OP was focussing on flaws. 

42 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Plus, the bo-hi - mei , looks to me like somebody has definitely been monkeying around there. Either the mei was added or the bo-hi. One would have to look carefully to see how the edge of where the mei and bo-hi come together look. Which came first?

Also looking at the nakago under magnification I think  I can see where the chisel has depressed metal into the edge of the bohi slightly causing very slight bulges. That would suggest the Hi came first then the Mei???

 

Also that nakago looks classic Shinshinto to me??

[Alex A]

To me, its just tired with a few issues, due to the number of times steel has been taken off with polish.

 

Look at the hamachi.

 

PS, pictures always make issues look worse, especially when they look like they been taken with a telescope.

 

Off top of head Colin, shinshinto not what im thinking. The bo-hi runs full length of nakago and you dont see that too often. Guessing earlier like early Muromachi. That explains the wear.

 

Doubt someone would go to the expense of full length bo-hi to hide a flaw.

 

Just speculating.

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Franco….see the very first post. The images are clearly stated to show just flaws. So we should not be surprised that all images show flaws🙂 I’m sure it would be possible to take images that make the blade look flawless but the OP was focussing on flaws. 

 

Colin, I am aware. When flaws become worse with each passing view ..... 

 

Koto? Shinto? Shinshinto? , exactly! Somebody has been playing games with this sword. 

 

Regards

[Mark S.]

General bohi related discussion… If you take the attached chart of sword construction and draw semi-circles indicating bohi in the mune area of each one, you can see how quickly you get into core steel of each one.  Blades were made in certain ways without the concern of the addition of bohi.  I think there was a general acceptance that the lightness and strength added by the addition of bohi was more important than the flaws brought out by them.  If not structurally unsound, minor flaws in the bohi aren’t a huge concern as long as the rest of the blade is sound, at least in my opinion… I assume I am pretty much looking at core steel in any bohi.  A good polisher can probably burnish away minor core steel flaws, but core steel is still core steel.  Not sure if it has been discussed, but should we expect the same level of ‘perfection’ when core steel is observed in the bohi?  What should high quality core steel look like?  We are usually looking at high quality outer steel and only condemn core steel because it is exposed from repeated polish.  But should it be condemned as a ‘flaw’ when a bohi cuts deeply into it?  Interested in the discussion.
 

[Alex A]

Agree with Mark.

 

From what i can gather, polishers tend to be a lot more wary when it comes to sorting out marks, rust or whatever in the bo-hi for the reason mentioned above.

 

Had a sword turn up with the odd old rust mark in the bo-hi  (cleaned out marks). It bothered me then but would bother me less now as not so pedantic on such matters. 

 

They were left by the polisher.

 

So long as the seller/dealer makes it clear about such matters, which they didn't at the time

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Mark S. said:

I assume I am pretty much looking at core steel in any bohi.  

 

Are you applying this comment to all Japanese swords or just limiting it to swords with core steel construction? 

 

Regards

[Franco D]

4 hours ago, Mark S. said:

strength added by the addition of bohi was more important than the flaws brought out by them.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/8456-katana-with-bo-hi/

 

Here we go again. 

 

Please explain to me how the function of an I-beam applies/transfers to the function of nihonto and a cutting activity. Is the sword carrying a load?

 

 

Regards

[Brian]

Doesn't change strength, but does add stiffness. It would aid in cutting and weight.

[ROKUJURO]

6 hours ago, Mark S. said:

It should be SHINGANE ("soft" steel, which is not a correct term. Most often, it is non-hardenable iron)

[sabiji]

And then another idea: we know Hi filled with lacquer quite often with Yari. Really old polishes are very rare on sword blades. It would be interesting to know how often in history Hi on sword blades were filled with lacquer. From time to time you can still find sword blades whose Hi still show lacquer, or at least remnants of it.

 

A frequently held opinion is that this was done for simple and inferior blades. Or to conceal poorly cut hi or kizu in the hi.

 

This is certainly plausible. Nevertheless, in the past I have also repeatedly seen better blades that showed lacquer or remnants of lacquer in the Hi before restoration.

 

I was recently able to study an example of such a better blade at a friend's home. The lacquer residue was removed during polishing. The cleaned Hi was clean cut and showed no kizu. The owner decided to give the Hi a new coat of Urushi lacquer. 

 

I would therefore like to return to a point I have already made here. Blades of any quality are nowadays given the best possible "optical" polish. That's just the way the market is, because that's what the customer wants.

But this will not always have been the case throughout history. And so we worry about things that weren't even visible back then...

[Brian]

I'm curious to know if any smiths ever forged in the bo-hi, followed by refining it by cutting. We always see them cutting in the hi with scrapers/cutters, but I'm wondering if forging the hi in would have been done by any of them.

[Lewis B]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

I'm curious to know if any smiths ever forged in the bo-hi, followed by refining it by cutting. We always see them cutting in the hi with scrapers/cutters, but I'm wondering if forging the hi in would have been done by any of them.

Good question and not something I have an answer for. But Koto swordmakers often used folded (refined) Shingane steel for the core, so in theory I would expect this to have fewer kizu exposed when the bo-hi is cut.

[Mark S.]

5 hours ago, Franco D said:

 

Please explain to me how the function of an I-beam applies/transfers to the function of nihonto and a cutting activity. Is the sword carrying a load?

 

My apologies…

[Franco D]

2 hours ago, Mark S. said:

My apologies…

 

No worries. Actually, it is a good topic to raise as there are all too often misconceptions that need to be challenged and more carefully thought through.

 

Regards

[sc72]

I thank everyone for the comments and suggestions offered. On some aspects I must confess that I am less certain than before. I think you've said it all about the kizu. I was struck by the fact that the age of the blade is now also being questioned. I'll put a few more photos on the file marks. If anyone has played with this sword maybe they will have played with these too