for $175 on ebay

[John A Stuart]

I am guilty of using wak Franco, but, only to save time for a typist using the two forefingers method and that blasted 'z' is way over there. Maybe I'll use shoto. :lol: John

[Jean]

John,

 

Got it - try K. , W., T. , No offence to anyone this way

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  Ted Tenold said:

Advice based on experience can be shared. Experience is always personally gained. :lol:

 

I had to post this. Is on swordmanship self-traing but can be applied to self-learning on E-pray too :D :

 

SELF-TRAINING (LEARNING) :

 

— You start out with an empty bag of experience and a full bag of luck. The trick for survival is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck goes empty.

 

— You have to gain experience in order to avoid making mistakes, but the only way to gain experience is to learn from the mistakes that are made!

Surviving the mistakes, of course, is a pesky little prerequisite as well.

 

— A smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from somebody else's.

 

T.L. Johnson

[Jean]

Carlo, my friend, you hit the nail on the head :D :D

[Jock]

Does it have a kaeri (return) or is it Yakizume (running straight to the mune)?

 

_________________

Jean

 

 

Hi Jean,

 

I twisted and turned the blade in different angles in the light until my eyes popped out - and yes there is a 1mm wide (and then getting thiner and thiner) return for about 3.5 -4 cm

 

Jock

[Jean]

Strange for a Nagamaki Naoshi ....

[george trotter]

Jean, Not so strange if it is not naoshi, such as if it was made as a small (woman's) naginata.

 

Also, can I comment on the use of Jap wak kat? Under the rules of English, and good manners, it is perfectly acceptable to use these as abbreviations, for example Jap. wak. kat. The full stop (period for the Americans) must never be neglected. Personally I shudder to see these shortenings used, but remember if you use the full stop it is correct, polite grammar in English.

 

Regards,

George.

[uwe]

Hi Folks,

as far as I know, we had to distinguish between naginata and nagamaki

Uwe

[Jean]

Interesting George :

 

I was starting from 2 hypothesis :

 

- Taking into account the very small sori I was going for a Nagamaki rather than a naginata

- I thought it was o suriage - but perhaps not taking into account the nakago look. It is certainly Machi okuri by the distance of the 2 Mekugi ana (Must have been before around 36 cm), perhaps the reason why the habaki has been mutilated, but for the rest (O suriage) it is pure speculation from my part. But then again when you see Naginata Nakago they are much longer and much thinner and the mekugi ana is much lower :

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/naginata/main.html

 

I have not seen Women Naginata but if some one had some pictures to spare I'll be glad to see them.

[John A Stuart]

I don't think there is a specific 'womans' naginata. There were many lengths and weights of naginata and just like a katana the person would use what is practible for their length of body (arm) and strength. In tournements there is no distinction between the sexes as it comes to competition. I would think it has always been so. The Sensei of the SCNF is a woman. John

[george trotter]

Hi all,

Yes an interesting point...naginata or nagamaki. The naginata usually becomes much broader in the boshi than nagamaki? I just spoke on my memories of 30 years ago. The women dancers were talking specifically about samurai women and their weapons and techniques to defend the house and it was put down in song and dance to help them learn/remember the kata (way of doing). They said it was a naginata, and if I recall, they said it was a woman's naginata because they also showed us makuriyari (a woman's "pillow spear")...very small and light...usually kept near the futon in case the bedroom is attacked. But I must admit, I don't know if there were yari and naginata made especially for women...I just remember the one she used was very much like this one. As for the tang, I agree they are slimmer and longer and the mekugiana is further down than wakizashi, but we don't know for sure here whether the tang is suriage and machiokuri to the extent that all the original tang is gone. If is has gone then perhaps it is not so small after all.

 

just a thought.

George.

[Jock]

  Bruno said:

Jock,

 

Is the munemachi descent(3-4 mm)? I have been told by skilled man that it is one of the good good way to see if the sword is tired or not.

 

May we have a pic of it please?

 

Regards

 

 

Hi Bruno,

 

My apology for the delay in replying to your message above - the munemachi is 4mm - I need a new camera as soon as I have it I'll post a pic!

 

Jock

[Bruno]

Hi Jock,

 

Thank you.

 

In fact, I 've made a mistake! I meant the ha machi instead of the munemachi. 4mm is good enought anyway.

 

I have been told that the ha machi should measure at least 4/5 mm otherwise the blade could be a bit tired to tired to death, and that sometime nakago have been filed at the hamachi and/or munemachi to make them more important, so the sword younger.Thus, it is more difficult to determine how the sword is tired.

[Jean]

Bruno,

 

Forget the hamachi thing (though if non existing or small is an indication), there are a lot of other signs showing if the sword is tired or not. Furthermore it does not work on suriage blade, machi okuri .....

[george trotter]

An interesting point Jean... Just to clarify the ha/mune machi thing...the original question was about the mune-machi indicating tiredness...I said the ha-machi is more likely to be an indicator than the mune-machi. Jean, with repect, while I agree there are a lot of other signs of tiredness in a blade I don't think it is wise to just "forget about the ha machi thing". Because the blade wears thin with many polishes,and the nakago stays thick, the ha-machi/habaki fit is especially a sign of tiredness (IMHO) or at least repeated polishings. You say, the matter does not exist in the case of suriage or machi okuri...I think this this is open to discussion as in these cases a large part of the nakago is still thick . It would only be correct if the old, thick nakago is totally removed as in o-suriage, and the questioner did not say the blade was o-suriage.

If the blade was o-suriage then the machi thing would not apply and as you say, other signs would need to be checked.

with respect,

George.

[Jean]

George,

 

I did not say anything else and won't enter into a useless debate. Everything must be look after and there are a lot of pro and counter examples, depending on when the sword was forged.

 

This is not the object of my post.

 

Just reread Bruno post carefully and you understand the why of my post.

 

  Quote

I meant the ha machi instead of the munemachi. 4mm is good enought anyway.

 

Is good enough for what? For the blade not being tired?

 

  Quote

I have been told that the ha machi should measure at least 4/5 mm otherwise the blade could be a bit tired to tired to death,

 

Where does it lead : nowhere - Hearsay, Bruno does not know for sure, at least 4/5mm hamachi, it is a brand new one ...

 

  Quote

and that sometime nakago have been filed at the hamachi and/or munemachi to make them more important, so the sword younger

 

No, I don't think that a new filed mune/ha machi are made for a blade looking younger (kind of refreshing) - There are thousands of more convincing reasons

 

  Quote

Thus, it is more difficult to determine how the sword is tired.

 

The why of my shortcut post.

 

I like Bruno because he is enthusiastic and try to learn hard as a newbie.

 

BUT, my reply is a gently reminder that his post is neither complete nor concluding and even more confusing showing that he is just throwing in a post, undigested infos.

 

This question (Hamachi) should have been subject of a newtopic with polishers' opinions (our friend Ted) and in a same way, "How to spot a tired blade" - these topics are educationnal ones and should be one day or another opened in the board. That is what a newbie should do or anyone wanting clarification/information.

[george trotter]

Hi Jean,

Yes, now I am confused too....I agree with you, I think it is maybe better to wait until the question becomes a proper thread of discussion.

Regards,

George.

[Jean]

Just for information, I have verified the hamachi of 3 koto swords, of which one ubu and 2 Osuriage.

 

Hamachi is at most 2mm

[Ted Tenold]

George, Jean, et al.,

 

Just a short address since I can't commit to a new post at the moment, but will draft something in more detail in the future.

 

There really are too issues here; tired or diminished. Using measurements on an altered blade are of little consideration when determining the difference between the two. O-suriage swords can show significant depleation in the habaki area where the polishing starts from the nakago which was itself part of the blade body before it was shortened.

 

Tired is defined by a sword having lost consistency or uniformity of essential features, the severity of which is somewhat subjective depending on the work, it's age, and the tradition in which it was made.

 

Diminished condition better defines a work which still carries consistency of it's features, yet the overall mass of the blade has been depleted. Tanto are a good example of how much deminishment a sword can suffer while still exhibiting intact structure, material, and heat treating features. The shape might be a shadow of it's former glory, but the integrity of the work still remains.

 

Arguably, there is a gray area between them that could be sort of an "approaching" tired stage, where certain features are starting to suffer. An example of this might be an area of "hajimi" which is slight muddiness of the yakiba, because the yakiba weakens in form and feature the deeper into the heart of the blade the surface reveals.

 

As with all things in Nihonto, exceptions exist when applying these terms to a sword with the age, tradition, school, smith, etc., all playing a part. A sword that has suffered what could be called a fatal loss due to becoming tired, is not necessarily a lost sword from a historic or academic perspective.

 

Now, keeping the subject appropriate to the OP;

 

I have not said anything until now about this particular work, but there is one image (and we know how tainted judgements from images can be :| ) I have circled what *appears* to show the yakiba running off the edge approaching the kissaki. Jock mentions that he "twisted and turned the blade in different angles in the light until my eyes popped out" to see the boshi and return. This is a bit concerning to me. If the rest of the yakiba is quite visable, then the boshi and kaeri should not be so hard to identify. The sword looks like it may have had finger stones applied because the ji is a chalky white and the yakiba will look darker as this sword shows. That strength should have some consistancy throughout. If not, it could be poor application, or the yakiba in the tip could be soft or absent altogether. Again is the caveat that images aren't always good story-tellers, but it does seem to look like a problem may exist.

[Jean]

Thanks Ted for your input

[Jean]

Given examples for tanto as per Ted post :

 

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss302.htm

 

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss304.htm

[Jock]

Hi Folks,

 

I followed your postings above with great interest - I believe a novice like me can learn a lot just reading the different opinions and statements of more experienced people on this site and I would like to express my appreciation for sharing your vast amount of experience and knowledge with people like me on this site.

 

Thank you very much for all the mentoring!

 

Jock