How do we keep up when there are craftsmen making "new" tsuba that look so authentic?

[Spartancrest]

http://tsubaryuken.com/sinsaku.html  - call me naive  but when I was looking through this site I thought all the sukashi tsuba were genuine - until the very last section where they show them being made!  I found the 'translate to English' and it does state they are "NEW"  from 2014 and that they have several hundred of them. But then I got to thinking, once these "tsuba" were out in circulation how would you know they weren't the real thing? They have been out now ten years so how many have found their way into collectors hands and the time span is long enough to change hands several times - these are not some clumsy Chinese rip offs or laser cut paperweights which are easy to spot - these are going to make serious collecting very hard especially for the novice.

[ROKUJURO]

You have to see them in hand, of course. But just from the pictures, it is really difficult to guess their age. And they are not really cheap-cheap.

[OceanoNox]

I haven't seen any signature, but some designs look more modern. It can be confusing, but still, there are new swords being made, so tosogu obviously follow. I remember there was a fellow like him (or maybe it was him) on a sword series on NHK, hosted by Paul Martin, with a Takarazuka co-host. I suppose those tsuba are aimed at martial artists?

[lonely panet]

No shadowing around the seppa dai always gives me a bad feeling. 

 

Also 50% of iron tsuba are waxed imho that just ruins the natural iron colour of the school too

[SteveM]

This is the first time for me to see "new" tsuba that are made and sold with sekigane and tagane marks around the nakago hitsu. 

The sales pitch is very clear - they are not being sold as antiques. But why the sekigane and tagane marks?

Ideally your new tsuba wouldn't have any of these "adjustments" on it. These will end up in the second-hand market, and will cause a lot of confusion. 

[OceanoNox]

3 hours ago, SteveM said:

But why the sekigane and tagane marks?

I thought sekigane were necessary regardless of newness, to protect the steel of the nakago. Maybe it's the craftsman style? or lack of it? In the introduction video, they said he was a carpenter before falling in love with tsuba. So it's possible he is self taught and goes with the flow, so to speak.

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, SteveM said:

But why the sekigane and tagane marks?

That is what had me confused to start with, the tagane has moved the metal as you would expect from a genuine guard, The lack of a seppa shadow helps but otherwise they are very well made modern 'utushi'. Most are from well known patterns and some have "age appropriate" faint kebori. In isolation they might well pass as genuine, clumped together in a group they stand out more. Even so the prices are not outrageous considering they are hand finished, I couldn't make one for the time and labor cost.

 

5 minutes ago, OceanoNox said:

So it's possible he is self taught and goes with the flow, so to speak.

Well he must be skilled and has certainly got the look right  - he is a quick study, what would his work be like if he had studied it all his life 

[OceanoNox]

24 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

I couldn't make one for the time and labor cost.

Apparently, it takes him about 3 months to complete, but I suppose a lot of that is the patination. Interestingly, he uses some kind of clay that he prepared and lets the tsuba rest in it for a while. I remember Jim Kelso explaining on his website about letting dry a layer of clay mixed with various stuff, but it's the first time I saw someone bury the tsuba in it (and many recipes for patination are liquids, to paint or dunk the heated piece in).

Looking at how he proceeds, he prints the pattern, glues it on top of a factory made blank, then cuts and files (funnily too, he cuts horizontally with his jeweller's saw, unlike most people I have seen, who cut vertically).

[goo]

If it's this difficult to distinguish the difference maybe it is time to embrace, facilitate and start a new category.   For a craftsperson once they develop a passion for something it's not a want but a need, that person has to make or wither.      Make a space and create a pathway to legitimacy.    Gift a mei that can be registered and required. Encourage tosugo that looks like the old ones did when they were new so the work can be identified as new, as in don't antique or fake patina your work to look old.   Experienced collectors mentor craftspersons to develop skills.    The NBTHK already has a category for newly made pieces facilitate a pathway to craftspersons showing an ability and ethical practices.    Just my 2 cents here. 

[davel]

Talking about Chinese.. How easely would we spot this one as a made in China :)?

 

 

[Matsunoki]

11 minutes ago, davel said:

Would you spot this one as a made in China :)?

Dave, that is starting to get scary. Ok, it looks new and the design going over seppadai does sound an alert but it has to be hand made doesn’t it? Looks dark shibuichi so the material could be “genuine”.

Where did you find them?

[davel]

Yes handmade and appearently it was made by this company https://www.instagram.com/zsey_swords/

[DoTanuki yokai]

Plain looking surface and the blue color, also it does not really transfer the yokoya feel for me.  
 

Just look at the horselegs 

[Tlognaws]

How about the second one?

[Tlognaws]

On 7/9/2024 at 4:24 PM, DoTanuki yokai said:

Plain looking surface and the blue color, also it does not really transfer the yokoya feel for me.  
 

Just look at the horselegs 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think I don’t understand your question but found this today.