hddennis Posted July 4 Report Share Posted July 4 Considering buying this kabuto and would like opinions as to age and name of style and anything else that may help me decide. Thanks in Advance. Howard Dennis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uwe Posted July 4 Report Share Posted July 4 Hi Howard, I would categorize this helmet as an 椎形兜 - Shiinari-kabuto (“acorn”* shaped helmet). Defining age is rather problematic. First impression might be early Edo, but this depends on something. Do you have a shot of the inside (ukebari is loose at the front anyway)? Furthermore it seems the lowermost lame of the shikoro bears a sign in red lacquer. That could point towards okashi…. * literally translated it’s not acorn but this description has become common. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 4 Author Report Share Posted July 4 uwe, Thanks for your response. what is okashi ? I only have the sellers photos but here is the best I can do on the red lacquer. What does it mean? Howard Dennis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted July 4 Report Share Posted July 4 Pointed kabuto like this can be sub-divided into various shapes (Shiinari etc.,) but generally they are all called ‘toppai’ (pointed) for ease of reference. I have quite a similar one, said to be from early Edo. If you like it, why not? My feeling is it could be too good for okashi gusoku (armor kept in the armoury for ‘lending’ out to ashigaru footsoldiers). The verb kasu/kashi means ‘to lend’. The character looks like サ (Sa), but it could be… 廾 (20) maybe? Will you keep it in this condition or will you have it touched up a little? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 4 Author Report Share Posted July 4 9 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said: Pointed kabuto like this can be sub-divided into various shapes (Shiinari etc.,) but generally they are all called ‘toppai’ (pointed) for ease of reference. I have quite a similar one, said to be from early Edo. If you like it, why not? My feeling is it could be too good for okashi gusoku (armor kept in the armoury for ‘lending’ out to ashigaru footsoldiers). The verb kasu/kashi means ‘to lend’. The character looks like サ (Sa), but it could be… 廾 (20) maybe? Will you keep it in this condition or will you have it touched up a little? Piers, Thanks for your response. I've decided I'd like to own this and think it would benefit from some sympathetic touching up. My problem now is trying to get seller to commit to me traveling to him for purchase. Wish me luck. I'll keep you posted. Howard Dennis 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uwe Posted July 4 Report Share Posted July 4 Good luck, Howard! We can try to date it when you have it in hand…. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 4 Author Report Share Posted July 4 Just got a commitment from seller to pick it up Sunday so will get photos on here soon after. Thanks for all the help Guys. Really appreciate it. To be continued....... Howard Dennis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 8 Author Report Share Posted July 8 Well, I now have the kabuto in hand and here's more details. Howard Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 8 Author Report Share Posted July 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 9 Author Report Share Posted July 9 Here's my novice comments. The hachi has chipped lacquer that exposed bright bare metal and the lacquer appears to be either a single coat or very thin multiple coats. The shikoro has chips as well but they expose a light colored filler material under the lacquer suggesting "to me at least " that the shikoro might be older than the hachi as I have seen this filler on most older pieces. The one remaining fukigaeshi is the smallest I have ever seen. The kabuto weighs 4 pounds and seems to me to be lighter than older examples I've handled. I look forward to you comments on this. Howard Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uwe Posted July 9 Report Share Posted July 9 Hi Howard, I will stay by my first impression. One could even go back a little further (Momoyama), but that would be guesswork and the tsunomoto speaks against. As a rule of thumb, a lightweight bowl and small fukigaeshi indicating older age. But beware and keep in mind, when it comes to katchū, the main rule is “there is no rule” 😉 However, the way the plates are cut and riveted together (plus other indicators) strengthen my assumption. The shikoro was re laced at some point and sloppy attached afterwards. Whether it is original to the hachi or not is hard to tell (but looks good in my eyes). Maybe the alignment of the holes can give an idea?! On the other hand it was not uncommon to replace a neck guard also back in the days… All in all a honest kabuto from western Japan! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc T Posted July 9 Report Share Posted July 9 Old shiinari you have there. Kansai work, maybe Haruta 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 9 Author Report Share Posted July 9 Where can I buy a new cord to tie the kabuto on ? Howard Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shogun8 Posted July 11 Report Share Posted July 11 Hi Howard, Agree with Luc and Uwe on their assessments. I should also add that older kabuto - especially toppai nari - often had very thin lacquer applied, ostensibly for weight considerations. Nice kabuto! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 11 Author Report Share Posted July 11 15 minutes ago, Shogun8 said: Hi Howard, Agree with Luc and Uwe on their assessments. I should also add that older kabuto - especially toppai nari - often had very thin lacquer applied, ostensibly for weight considerations. Nice kabuto! John, thanks for posting that. Every little bit of information helps me better understand this latest addition to my collection. Appreciate the assistance. Howard Dennis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 12 Author Report Share Posted July 12 Yojimbo, Since you didn't answer my private message I'll ask you publicly. What's with the SAD emoji on my kabuto post?? Howard Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 12 Author Report Share Posted July 12 8 hours ago, hddennis said: Yojimbo, Since you didn't answer my private message I'll ask you publicly. What's with the SAD emoji on my kabuto post?? Howard Dennis Been coming here for years and have always been greeted by knowledgeable responses to my questions and great advice. This latest response by Yojimbo seemed to be a new addition to questions. I asked privately but got no response but did receive this today. " "latest addition to my collection" like this: I'm not hypercorrect, just reality. What is sad? in this case the quality level of your choice. but I understand you. It's better to have "at least" something than nothing. At a time when I had no money and no knowledge, I was excited even at a very low level like you. that is all. Why accumulate scrap? move up I will not comment further." Really?? If that's the way you feel why not just move on and read some other post that satisfies your level of collecting and not bother to taint the post I made and others were nice enough to respond to and educate me and others as well. But You chose instead to publicly denigrate my latest purchase by your response so I feel it only fair to share your private response. I'd appreciate it if you refrain from ever reading or responding to my future posts as we clearly have differing levels interest. Howard Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOJIMBO Posted July 12 Report Share Posted July 12 and what are you trying to do? are you looking for support against me here? so that others feel sorry for you, that someone does not share your opinion of your treasure? it's a valid criticism, but it hurts. you write it publicly, I also have the right to my opinion publicly. Do you think it is only permissible to praise and otherwise remain silent? I CERTAINLY DON'T. ( when you move up a few levels, I'll praise you too ) my last comment on this 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted July 12 Report Share Posted July 12 Howard, you might have noticed that your topic inspired me to get the camera out and post my Eboshi Kabuto for comment so thank you. I will therefore expect a similar emoji because mine is a bit tatty as well. Who cares?…..the important thing is that we enjoy and learn thanks to the more generous natured members on here. Knowledge and pleasure does not depend upon £expenditure. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uwe Posted July 13 Report Share Posted July 13 About the “quality thing”. Last year I bought a very old Momonari-kabuto in bad condition (not that cheap as you probably might think 🥲). It is sloppily rivited together from thin scrap metal parts disguised by black lacquer. Of course low level workmanship and no artistic value. On the other hand an contemporary witness of the late Sengoku /Momoyama period and of great historical importance. A reference piece to understand the development of armor from the warring states onwards until the “peaceful” Edo period! And most important….I love it 😊 2 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shogun8 Posted July 13 Report Share Posted July 13 As Uwe has alluded to, I see no issues with the quality of this kabuto. It is a proper, battle-worthy specimen that hasn't been tatted up. In my eyes, kabuto like this are more respectable - and harder to find - than the usual run-of-the-mill late Edo stuff that attract most collectors. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 13 Author Report Share Posted July 13 Latest PM from Yojimbo: for you , must have : https://page.auction.../auction/r1144323342 I can't believe the arrogance of this guy!! Brings to mind a quote sometimes attributed to Mark Twain something like it is better to let the world think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! Howard Dennis 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samurai Art Posted July 13 Report Share Posted July 13 Yahoo is blocked for many. This is what he sent you a link to: Yojimbo, aka Simon, is an incorrigible troll notorious for being one of the most unpleasant individuals on this forum. He consistently demeans everyone and everything while peddling subpar products within the sales section. The best course of action is to completely ignore him. Years ago, in Japan, I acquired a worn Momonari kabuto from the Momoyama period. Despite its weathered appearance, it boasts an outstanding shape. It sits proudly in my collection next to an armour once owned by a lord. This is the beauty of armour: regardless of its condition, if you cherish it, that's all that matters. Who cares what anyone else thinks? 3 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 We are spoiled in this game as there is still so many items about in good condition, so very lucky. If the helmet above was a ancient Greek Corinthian helmet, in the same condition, imagine the interest from wealthy collectors. The helmet above is in poor condition, but still an untouched piece of history. Its not easy placing your items on forums for discussion, thanks to the OP for doing so. That goes for anyone else too. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 Some years ago we had the annual national meeting of the NKBKHK Japan Society for the Study and Preservation of Armours and Weapons in our local city. The prefectural museum had a grand display of armours ranging all the way from very early, to late Edo gorgeous. I saw a board member that I knew and approached him with a polite: "Which piece do you like best here?" He took me over to a small and poorly-lit cabinet. "This one", he said, pointing to a single rusty Momonari bowl with large holes in it. He waved his hand dismissively at the other room, full of splendid displays from the Edo period. That was one man's opinion, but it left an impression on me. 4 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shogun8 Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 On 7/13/2024 at 7:57 AM, uwe said: About the “quality thing”. Last year I bought a very old Momonari-kabuto in bad condition (not that cheap as you probably might think 🥲). It is sloppily rivited together from thin scrap metal parts disguised by black lacquer. Of course low level workmanship and no artistic value. On the other hand an contemporary witness of the late Sengoku /Momoyama period and of great historical importance. A reference piece to understand the development of armor from the warring states onwards until the “peaceful” Edo period! And most important….I love it 😊 Uwe, I know the piece you refer to here and I love it. In fact "art", like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. With pieces such as this, I think context is important. It was made in the time of battles, when they had to churn these things out to meet demand, so they didn't have the time and resources to devote to making them. Yet, they still achieved a very serviceable helmet, that even today, looks streamlined and beautiful and because of it's shape and lightness was effective for its time. I know that I'm preaching to the converted here, but I write this for others who might not fully appreciate these old items. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 An idiot question, whilst talking kabuto Is there a way of knowing whether an helmet was made for a Samurai or an Ashigaru ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 No absolute rule as there were poor Bushi too, but look for quality vs basics, Alex. What could they afford? Rule of thumb. Quality vs quantity. Is your Lord rich enough to kit out the Ashigara (light foot soldiers) with quality kashi-gusoku (lend-out armour)? Or will he provide only quantities of simple dō with a very plain unadorned kabuto? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shugyosha Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 It may be an apocryphal story but I remember reading that Tokugawa Ieyasu favoured a basic 5 piece kabuto (it has a name but I’ve forgotten). It did the job for him. Obviously his may have been a better example than that of Joe Samurai… 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shogun8 Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Indeed, John. Ieyasu had 2 armours with zunari kabuto, albeit his were in gold. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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