Urushi techniques for armour

[Schmitty]

Hello, would anyone be able to point me in the direction of some resources/books/videos/blogs specifically on applying Urushi on metal and rawhide armor. The two things I am most interested in is

 

1: how exactly is this build up achieved on rawhide kozane before and after it is laced. I assume the rawhide is treated similarly to fuki urushi before lacing but then it looks like some kind of build up of material/filler, see first photo, before the final polished layers.

  

2: I don't know what the proper Japanese terminology is but how is the edgingtrim on metal Japanese armor built up. You can see it chipping/flaking away in this photo. I believe it's some Urushi clay mixture.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated thank you.

[ROKUJURO]

Trevor,

very special questions!

Have you considered to ask the related restorers directly?

One of them is David Thatcher: https://davidthatcher.co.uk/

[uwe]

It’s called “kokuso“, a mixture of urushi and fillers! 

[Schmitty]

5 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Trevor,

very special questions!

Have you considered to ask the related restorers directly?

One of them is David Thatcher: https://davidthatcher.co.uk/

No I have not, I wanted to exhaust all other options before I pester them with questions but I suppose there is no harm in asking. Ill send him an email, Thanks for the reply.

[Samurai Art]

I am a member of this board.

The mixture is called sabi-urushi nuri, not kokuso, as previously mentioned. It consists of flour, sawdust, or hemp strands. Sabi is made with water and a dried volcanic clay called tonoko. 

As a retired professional restorer, I cannot delve deeply into the restoration process. I have no interest in educating the three katchushi posers in this group who wish to learn the process to improve their monstrous works.

For the newbies, I cannot recommend anything in the same way asking about sword polishing would be received.

There are no books on the subject; to learn, you must study metalwork and how to apply urushi yourself.  Studying in Japan should allow you to find a teacher like Nishioka or toyoda sensei, which is the only route in my opinion.

[Schmitty]

5 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

I am a member of this board.

The mixture is called sabi-urushi nuri, not kokuso, as previously mentioned. It consists of flour, sawdust, or hemp strands. Sabi is made with water and a dried volcanic clay called tonoko. 

As a retired professional restorer, I cannot delve deeply into the restoration process. I have no interest in educating the three katchushi posers in this group who wish to learn the process to improve their monstrous works.

For the newbies, I cannot recommend anything in the same way asking about sword polishing would be received.

There are no books on the subject; to learn, you must study metalwork and how to apply urushi yourself.  Studying in Japan should allow you to find a teacher like Nishioka or toyoda sensei, which is the only route in my opinion.

Hello David, unfortunately studying in Japan is financially unfeasible for me, as much of a dream as that would be, but I completely understand the reasons. Your work is beautiful and inspiring and I thank you for the response.

[Samurai Art]

Trevor,
I can tell you this: Not a single katchushi in Japan that I have met can lacquer to what would be deemed an acceptable standard. They do not have the skills to finish the surface. My son is currently learning and I don't want to share any of the armour mixtures or techniques I have learned or developed in order to safeguard his future from a commercial point of view.

I learned urushi from a Japanese teacher, and you can study it remotely. There are several good lacquerers in the UK, including Mike Hickman Smith and Clive Hallam (Ford's brother). We are primarily self-taught but have improved over the years by taking instruction.

Mixing sabi-urushi is easy and will dry in the air; no furo is required. 

Please try it and buy some materials from Watanabe Shoten, but please do not attempt to lacquer real armour.
Rawhide is a bugger to work with; it has to be dried for at least three years prior; otherwise, it warps and traps in moisture.

good luck and all the best with your adventure!

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, MIFUNE said:

Trevor,
I can tell you this: Not a single katchushi in Japan that I have met can lacquer to what would be deemed an acceptable standard. They do not have the skills to finish the surface. My son is currently learning and I don't want to share any of the armour mixtures or techniques I have learned or developed in order to safeguard his future from a commercial point of view.

I learned urushi from a Japanese teacher, and you can study it remotely. There are several good lacquerers in the UK, including Mike Hickman Smith and Clive Hallam (Ford's brother). We are primarily self-taught but have improved over the years by taking instruction.

Mixing sabi-urushi is easy and will dry in the air; no furo is required. 

Please try it and buy some materials from Watanabe Shoten, but please do not attempt to lacquer real armour.
Rawhide is a bugger to work with; it has to be dried for at least three years prior; otherwise, it warps and traps in moisture.

good luck and all the best with your adventure!

Fully understandable decision and commendable your son wants to follow in your footsteps and carry on the tradition skills. Its the knowledge that you have acquired over many years of study, through trial and error and incremental improvements, listening, watching and learning that is so invaluable. I would hope all this knowledge is written down for posterity and study by future generations. Togishi, to which you alluded, are another group of skilled artisans that are slowly dwindling in number. Good luck to your 'apprentice'.

[Schmitty]

7 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

Trevor,
I can tell you this: Not a single katchushi in Japan that I have met can lacquer to what would be deemed an acceptable standard. They do not have the skills to finish the surface. My son is currently learning and I don't want to share any of the armour mixtures or techniques I have learned or developed in order to safeguard his future from a commercial point of view.

 

Completely understand and wish the best for your son.

 

7 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

I learned urushi from a Japanese teacher, and you can study it remotely. There are several good lacquerers in the UK, including Mike Hickman Smith and Clive Hallam (Ford's brother). We are primarily self-taught but have improved over the years by taking instruction.

Learning remotely would definitely be the way to go for me.

 

7 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

Please try it and buy some materials from Watanabe Shoten, but please do not attempt to lacquer real armour.
Rawhide is a bugger to work with; it has to be dried for at least three years prior; otherwise, it warps and traps in moisture.

good luck and all the best with your adventure!

Funny you mention Watanabe Shoten I had it saved already as a go to place for supplies in my notes and I would not dare attempt any work or restoration with real Japanese amour/swords or anything of the like. Than you for the kind words David and at this time plan to continue research on Urushi techniques before having a go at it myself maybe start with fuki urushi on some hashi/chopsticks. Thanks again for your time.

[Henri]

On 7/1/2024 at 8:23 PM, Schmitty said:

Hello, would anyone be able to point me in the direction of some resources/books/videos/blogs specifically on applying Urushi on metal and rawhide armor. The two things I am most interested in is

 

1: how exactly is this build up achieved on rawhide kozane before and after it is laced. I assume the rawhide is treated similarly to fuki urushi before lacing but then it looks like some kind of build up of material/filler, see first photo, before the final polished layers.

  

2: I don't know what the proper Japanese terminology is but how is the edgingtrim on metal Japanese armor built up. You can see it chipping/flaking away in this photo. I believe it's some Urushi clay mixture.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated thank you.

Hi Trevor,  

I saw your post.  I am studying in Japan about Japanese armour, lacquer, sword fittings, swords and related.  If you wish to learn more, Andrew Mancabelli was very kind and has been helping my studie.  His teacher was the most famouse armourer in the 20th century and he currently runs a traditional workshop in Japan. It is very difficult to get an intruduction but he has done a lot of work for the public including a bunch of video tutorials on traditional REAL urushi (Japanese lacquer) and lacing on his instagram page and facebook.  I dont think that you would be able to find a better advisor.  Actually, one of the photos that you posted is his and is currently in a museum for display.  

[Henri]

On 7/2/2024 at 8:12 AM, Samurai Art said:

I am a member of this board.

The mixture is called sabi-urushi nuri, not kokuso, as previously mentioned. It consists of flour, sawdust, or hemp strands. Sabi is made with water and a dried volcanic clay called tonoko. 

As a retired professional restorer, I cannot delve deeply into the restoration process. I have no interest in educating the three katchushi posers in this group who wish to learn the process to improve their monstrous works.

For the newbies, I cannot recommend anything in the same way asking about sword polishing would be received.

There are no books on the subject; to learn, you must study metalwork and how to apply urushi yourself.  Studying in Japan should allow you to find a teacher like Nishioka or toyoda sensei, which is the only route in my opinion.

Hi,  This information is not actually correct.  I have found that sometimes the words used in local areas, and depending on the particular profession, what the artist calls the materials can change.  However, what you are calling “sabiji urushi” is absolutely wrong for Japanese armour, and I cannot see how it could be right for other professions such as box lacquering, bowl lacquering etc.  Armour is the most difficult of all of the arts to do lacquer on and uses different techniques.  What Samurai art is talking about is “sabi ji nuri” which means literally “rust finish coating”.  It is basically a “makiji” coating covered with either one or two additional coats of seshhime, or a pigmented urushi that gives it the appearance of a “rusted finish”.  

 

For armour, the base coat that Samurai Art mentions does not use some of the ingredients, and certainly not as a combination, though it can use some of them.  Also, Tonoko is not dried volcanic clay.  Clay is sedimentary and it is derived from sedimentary deposits in different locations in Japan and in the olden days, leftover polishing stone powder (from stone polishers) could be used as as well for particular work such as makie etc.(uchiko)  By rumour the best tonoko comes from Kyoto.  However in Wajima (Ichikawa) they do use a type of jinoko (dirt)  that is derived from a different process. In recent years they do not allow people outside of their artiste group to acquire it, and it is a shame.  

 

I do agree that there are few books in non-japonese language but there are many books in Japanese, and there are some good videos in Japanese and English about proper urushi.  Mancabelli sensei is trying to save the traditional arts here in Japan by promoting the dealers and giving information for those trying to learn. There is a very large difference with real urushi and fake urushi such as cashew.  and they do not mix.  fake urushi should never be used for restoration and damages/destroys the original item.  there are too many points to mention here.   

 

Real urushi does take a high level of commitment,  literally a lifetime.  Most would be restourers or artists do not want to take the time to learn how to work with it.  But actually YES there are books, and YES there are very capable people in existence that are very qualified to help devoted, serious newcomers.  Unfortunately they are currently mostly living in Japan.   

[Henri]

On 7/3/2024 at 4:35 AM, Samurai Art said:

Trevor,
I can tell you this: Not a single katchushi in Japan that I have met can lacquer to what would be deemed an acceptable standard. They do not have the skills to finish the surface. My son is currently learning and I don't want to share any of the armour mixtures or techniques I have learned or developed in order to safeguard his future from a commercial point of view.

I learned urushi from a Japanese teacher, and you can study it remotely. There are several good lacquerers in the UK, including Mike Hickman Smith and Clive Hallam (Ford's brother). We are primarily self-taught but have improved over the years by taking instruction.

Mixing sabi-urushi is easy and will dry in the air; no furo is required. 

Please try it and buy some materials from Watanabe Shoten, but please do not attempt to lacquer real armour.
Rawhide is a bugger to work with; it has to be dried for at least three years prior; otherwise, it warps and traps in moisture.

good luck and all the best with your adventure!

This statement is the most disingenuous thing I have seen written on this thread.  There are indeed people to learn from in Japan. I know, thats why I traveled half way around the world to do so. Such a statement only operates to hurt the reputations of the more than qualified artists here in Japan who have devoted their lives to the betterment of traditional art.  If you really wanted your son to learn from the best, I would suggest sending him to Japan.  Mancabelli (Miura Anjin) only does tradional work.  Nishioka is capable of traditional work and is trained, however I think some of the students are using non-traditional methods at least for their new work and harikake helmets that they make.  Ogawa does not use traditional methods and many of his orders in recent times are done in aluminum.  He himself has stated that his works are for cosplay and hobbiests.  He is a nice man and has been very straightforward about his techniques. Most of the current traditional armourers living in Japan have come from or been influenced by the Morita Tomojiro line.   

The information about rawhide here is also wrong.  They did not wait three years to make armours out of it in the olden days . You just have to be taught how to work with it and prepare it before lacquer.  When working with rawhide, you do use steam to mould it.  Of course, they applied urushi shortly afterward.  Fake urushi will not work with rawhide.  If you use fake urushi it will fail.  The procedure for lacquering rawhide is of course different from that of iron and you must learn the techniques.  

Do you use real urushi?  Where did you study?  Who was your teacher?

Its not a “furo” its a “MURO” and there is a big difference between the two!  

There are currently, other sellers of traditional urushi besides Watanabe.  But I found them through Miura sensei’s instagram where he gives directions to their website and shop to help promote traditional art.  he told me that he will continue to add more such information to the page. 

[Henri]

On 7/3/2024 at 12:27 PM, Schmitty said:

Completely understand and wish the best for your son.

 

Learning remotely would definitely be the way to go for me.

 

Funny you mention Watanabe Shoten I had it saved already as a go to place for supplies in my notes and I would not dare attempt any work or restoration with real Japanese amour/swords or anything of the like. Than you for the kind words David and at this time plan to continue research on Urushi techniques before having a go at it myself maybe start with fuki urushi on some hashi/chopsticks. Thanks again for your time.

I would try talking to somebody else on facebook. Try in Japanese. Many very helpful artists there who will not lead you in the wrong direction. If you are in Japan and need advice, Miura sensei has helped me so much in the right direction.  But you would have to travel to Japan to meet him in person.  There are also some workshops in Japan that teach urushi (not for armor) which offer short courses for amateurs and people who wish to have a hobby.  It can help as an introduction to this art.

 

[uwe]

I can support Henry’s statement about Andy San!

Met him last year in Japan. Very nice guy, but always busy, hence hard to get an appointment 

[YOJIMBO]

Henri = mancabeli  

[Samurai Art]

Katchu Pillow Fight Mode:

I have no interest in getting involved in a urushi dispute. I'm retired and don't have the time for such trivial matters.
 

For clarity, Miura Anjin was the name given to the English pilot William Adams, also known as John Blackthorn, in the novel Shōgun. Regarding other points, tetsu (sabi-ji) urushi nuri refers to a russet iron texture applied to armour. Sabi nuri (錆漆) is a term lacquerers use for filler layers.

Andy has had an issue with me since his late teacher claimed I was more skilled than his student.

Mancabelli wrote the previous rant. I know how he writes. I will only say this: post your work for all to see.

Anyone can boast about their skills, but a photo speaks louder than a thousand words.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

I usually mostly lurk but damn.

 

7 hours ago, Samurai Art said:

Katchu Pillow Fight Mode:

I have no interest in getting involved in a urushi dispute. I'm retired and don't have the time for such trivial matters.

You certainly had the time for something as trivial as slandering people like Nishioka but for some reason don't have time to explain baby's first urushi ? I too have had the occasion to meet with mr Nishioka earlier this year and most of what that Henry dude said is right. It's also incredibly disrespectful to him to say that he's unable to get a proper urushi finish, and that no katchu-shi is able to, are you in a better position than Japanese museums to judge that ? You're making a mistake at toddler-level Japanese with using a furo instead of a muro, a furo is a goddamn bath for christ's sake, and we're supposed to believe that you're fit to judge people that are spending their lives doing this job ? That's N5 level Japanese, any damn beginner will make the difference.

 

7 hours ago, Samurai Art said:

For clarity, Miura Anjin was the name given to the English pilot William Adams, also known as John Blackthorn, in the novel Shōgun. Regarding other points, tetsu (sabi-ji) urushi nuri refers to a russet iron texture applied to armour. Sabi nuri (錆漆) is a term lacquerers use for filler layers.

Useless information, unless you're genuinely expecting people in here to have a room temperature IQ and being unable to differentiate an artist name and a long dead historical figure. I can't even fathom why you thought it'd be pertinent to put that information here, the only thing it serves is being patronizing and it's pretty disrespectful to the people here.

Also cool backpedaling here about the Sabi nuri, while you clearly said "sabi-urushi nuri" at first.

7 hours ago, Samurai Art said:

Andy has had an issue with me since his late teacher claimed I was more skilled than his student.

Mancabelli wrote the previous rant. I know how he writes. I will only say this: post your work for all to see.

Calling bluff on that one. If I'm not mistaken you've met the man just once, surely this is not enough time to judge someone's work.

 

7 hours ago, Samurai Art said:

Anyone can boast about their skills, but a photo speaks louder than a thousand words.

My brother in Christ, you just boasted about your skills in the same bloody post. The burden of proof is on you for all the wild stuff you're claiming. Your posts have only been dumb claims with nothing to back them, and you dare ask other to show their stuff. Andy isn't even in the goddamn thread but instead of refuting the points made you're asking someone that's not here to post his work. That's how rent-free he lives in your head. Instead of relying on ad-hominem the moment your claims get challenged, next time, make a proper answer like a grown man would.

I used to look up to you, then started getting suspicions when interacting with you, but now it's pretty evident that you're just LARPing as a katchushi. All that stance about being humble goes out the window the moment you get challenged. It's unfitting of what you're pretending to be. 

 

9 hours ago, uwe said:

I can support Henry’s statement about Andy San!

Met him last year in Japan. Very nice guy, but always busy, hence hard to get an appointment 

Agreed. I've had the chance to meet him, as well as a few other Shokunin and everything that's been told has been positive, reinforcing the idea that Dave's been spouting bullshit since the beginning.

[Henri]

On 7/17/2024 at 11:54 PM, YOJIMBO said:

Henri = mancabeli  

Thank you Yojimbo for the compliment.  However, I am not quite his equal.   Still learning, so I am currently only book smart and trying to learn from the best.  

[Henri]

On 7/18/2024 at 12:24 AM, Samurai Art said:

Katchu Pillow Fight Mode:

I have no interest in getting involved in a urushi dispute. I'm retired and don't have the time for such trivial matters.
 

For clarity, Miura Anjin was the name given to the English pilot William Adams, also known as John Blackthorn, in the novel Shōgun. Regarding other points, tetsu (sabi-ji) urushi nuri refers to a russet iron texture applied to armour. Sabi nuri (錆漆) is a term lacquerers use for filler layers.

Andy has had an issue with me since his late teacher claimed I was more skilled than his student.

Mancabelli wrote the previous rant. I know how he writes. I will only say this: post your work for all to see.

Anyone can boast about their skills, but a photo speaks louder than a thousand words.

Samurai Art,

 Im sorry I dont know who you are really and have not heard of you previously, I have only seen a few of the things you have written here as I just joined.  I was only trying to clarify some of your mistakes, but I am an amateur and did not mean to offend or embarrass you.  I did study Japanese in my university and have done home stays, so my Japanese is pretty good. I have also been learning here in Japan for some time. I was only trying to correct some of the terrible mistakes you have made regarding Urushi, such as the names of the urushi, and the most funny was where you mistook the word furo (which means "bath tub") for the word Muro which is a temperature/humidity controlled chamber. I think you can probably do urushi in a bath tub though if you like.  Though, I really regret some of the things that you have said regarding the abilities of the artists in Japan though that is insulting to them and people like me who have made the long walk to study under them. That is not fair to them, and it turns many people away from this beautiful country. People who might have the dream of coming here to learn, or hiring a traditional artiste to do work for them. I was lucky to have met some people who guided my path here.  I did not mean to embarrass you by pointing out your mistakes as I am just an amateur.  I of course have just begun my journey, so I do not wish to make any enemies here.  One thing that I don’t understand though, You say Mister Mancabelli’s teacher, Miura Hiromichi said that you were a much better student than his own students, and that is why Andy (current Miura sensei), dislikes you?   Im sure you know, because you have watched Japanese television about this, but Miura Hiromichi, named Andy as his “atotsugi” which means heir, or successor.  He gave Andy permission to use his name “Miura” and when I met with him, he called Andy “Anjin” because he was not able to phonetically pronunce his name correctly. This was cute. And Miura sensei told Andy to use it as his “shu mei” or pen name. It is also the name of his registered company.   If you met Miura sensei, he would have pronunced your name as “De-Bu” which in Japanese is a derogatory term for "Grossly obese". I know it is very ironic because you are probably very skinny, which is also funny.  I was told that Miura Sensei was from the Miura hanto peninsula originally, which was were Miura Anjin - William Adam’s  family and estate was located.  It is actually possible that there is a direct connection to William Adams that you mentioned. Now Andy is “Miura sensei” I dont think many foreigners have been named successors to living treasures.   I have seen his work and it is worthy and amazing.  And shamefully, I am still a beginner, so I have nothing of worth to show.  Maybe I can have something for you in a few years….. I hope.  For now, I will only share what knowledge I have been able to learn from the kind teachers I have met.

[Henri]

On 7/17/2024 at 9:53 PM, uwe said:

I can support Henry’s statement about Andy San!

Met him last year in Japan. Very nice guy, but always busy, hence hard to get an appointment 

One of the kindest and most helpful people I have met.  Yes very busy, but will always make time with advance notice.   

[Miura]

On 7/2/2024 at 8:12 AM, Samurai Art said:

I am a member of this board.

The mixture is called sabi-urushi nuri, not kokuso, as previously mentioned. It consists of flour, sawdust, or hemp strands. Sabi is made with water and a dried volcanic clay called tonoko. 

As a retired professional restorer, I cannot delve deeply into the restoration process. I have no interest in educating the three katchushi posers in this group who wish to learn the process to improve their monstrous works.

For the newbies, I cannot recommend anything in the same way asking about sword polishing would be received.

There are no books on the subject; to learn, you must study metalwork and how to apply urushi yourself.  Studying in Japan should allow you to find a teacher like Nishioka or toyoda sensei, which is the only route in my opinion.

Hi Dave,

I heard you invoked my name here. So I felt like answering this while waiting for the airplane. 

1. You got the names of the urushi wrong.

2. You got the ingredients wrong

3. You are not retired.  If you are a professional and not an amateur, who trained you?  

4. Who are the posers you refer to, and give an example of their monstrous works. Im sure they could give quite a few examples of yours. 

5. If there are no books on the subject, how did you learn?  You have not spent enough time in Japan to learn.  Who taught you?  

6. There are indeed quite a few books AND tutorial videos.  My students read them. But you have to do your homework and be able to read Japanese, and or find a qualified mentor.  You can also check my instagram page where I have done quite a few tutorial videos showing various steps for the process.

7. Mr. Nishioka, who I consider a friend, is not taking any more apprentices from what he told me a couple months ago.  Thanks to people like you I think he is turned off to the idea of having internationals in particular.  The other armor makers do catch wind of what is going on with the foreigners by the way. And they dont like it.   He also expressed to me that he is worried that there will not be enough work for people in the future. Keeping the number of workers necessary to the demand put forth by the economy is a very responsible thing for a teacher to do. currently all of his students are Japanese.   You spelled his name wrong -TOYOTA san is not a teacher. Please stop calling him sensei.  In Japan to call somebody sensei they must have completed a body of work in their field and make a living in that field, or be a professor with students, or have written works of note as a professional in the field.   Toyota san is a hobbiest, who works on armor when he is not busy being the president of a company or volunteering his time for small displays of other people’s work.  He realistically does not have to teach students and is not a professional armor maker.  His work is mainly limited to several Kozane style yoroi/haramaki and very little iron work, which is what katchu shi specialize in.   

[Miura]

On 7/3/2024 at 4:35 AM, Samurai Art said:

Trevor,
I can tell you this: Not a single katchushi in Japan that I have met can lacquer to what would be deemed an acceptable standard. They do not have the skills to finish the surface. My son is currently learning and I don't want to share any of the armour mixtures or techniques I have learned or developed in order to safeguard his future from a commercial point of view.

I learned urushi from a Japanese teacher, and you can study it remotely. There are several good lacquerers in the UK, including Mike Hickman Smith and Clive Hallam (Ford's brother). We are primarily self-taught but have improved over the years by taking instruction.

Mixing sabi-urushi is easy and will dry in the air; no furo is required. 

Please try it and buy some materials from Watanabe Shoten, but please do not attempt to lacquer real armour.
Rawhide is a bugger to work with; it has to be dried for at least three years prior; otherwise, it warps and traps in moisture.

good luck and all the best with your adventure!

1. Its funny, in one of your other recent posts, you spoke of how great some of the other Katchushi’s work was as your used their names to bolster your own attempts. So you used a very short meeting with them to bring yourself up, but then you defame them here. Whats wrong with you?  

2. Does your son know that you are speaking of him here?  Does he even know he is studying under you?  He should probably be warned of how hostile the environment has become since you started. Its why a lot of the actual professional Katchu shi have stopped teaching people so liberally and are keeping to themselves.  On this I CAN speak for others.  So if he wants to train over here….. 

3. From all the tutorials you tried to give me on your shortcuts which used chemicals that do not match with real urushi, and your uses of cashew etc. , I would wonder what the heck you have compiled.  What I took many years to learn, is a culmination of a thousand years of history and improving the art. 

4. Who is your teacher?  In your previous topic, you basically said that there is nobody to learn from in Japan.  I will state here, the techniques for Iron and Leather are very different than with wooden bowls and other products that urushi is used on. Though sometimes there is an overlap. 

5. On my instagram account miura anjin samurai art where I teach various urushi and lacing techniques, also facebook, you can see some of the people that I support with free adverts showing to their shops and website addresses.  Watanabe shoten is one of them.  So if you want information try there.  All of this was done voluntarily to support the community. 

6. Rawhide….. you just have to know what your are doing. Of course they didn’t make kashi gusoku over three years!   It is however a different art, and different armor specialists made it. 

7. ITS A MURO not a FURO.    A “furo” refers to a bath tub.  

[Miura]

On 7/17/2024 at 11:54 PM, YOJIMBO said:

Henri = mancabeli  

Yojimbo = Mifune = Date Masamune = Botanmaru = Samurai Art = Dave Thatcher = KNKBSK 

 

Lets stick to one ID here “Samurai Art"

 

[Miura]

On 7/18/2024 at 12:24 AM, Samurai Art said:

Katchu Pillow Fight Mode:

I have no interest in getting involved in a urushi dispute. I'm retired and don't have the time for such trivial matters.
 

For clarity, Miura Anjin was the name given to the English pilot William Adams, also known as John Blackthorn, in the novel Shōgun. Regarding other points, tetsu (sabi-ji) urushi nuri refers to a russet iron texture applied to armour. Sabi nuri (錆漆) is a term lacquerers use for filler layers.

Andy has had an issue with me since his late teacher claimed I was more skilled than his student.

Mancabelli wrote the previous rant. I know how he writes. I will only say this: post your work for all to see.

Anyone can boast about their skills, but a photo speaks louder than a thousand words.

When I was young, I knew a guy who always started fights and then blamed it on other people.   In Japan they have the saying “boketsu wo horu”  - which means “dig your own grave”.  Why do you have to continuously go after people.  

1. Ill thank Henry for explaining about Miura Anjin.  Yes, thats basically the way my name was changed. Miura sensei told me to use that name. I discussed it with him as I careated my LLC using that name. Its the name of my trading company for christ sake. And yes, there is a connection to William Adams in the history whether the bloodline is direct or indirect. I am just the person carrying on the tradition that came down from the Edo period, though that was inherited by a long line of rather famous artisans. 

2. Yes, I do have a lot of issues with you. But it has nothing to do with Miura sensei.  You met him for all but 20-30 minutes because I was kind enough to introduce some of the important people in my life to you.  This has proven to be a terrible mistake.  One of the biggest mistakes in my life to trust you.  The meeting with Miura sensei amounted to this:  1. I introduced you.  2.You gave him some sake and beer which I told you to buy for him as a present. 3. you showed him some of the lacing that you made on a shoe lace machine.  4. Miura sensei said “its wrong”.  You said, “why?”.  He said, “no front, no back”.  Then you asked to take a photo with him so that you could say you met him and say that he praised you, which is not true.  5. we left. That was EXACTLY how the meeting went.  What you didn’t know was that I really had to say some nice things to Miura sensei about you for him to meet you because he didnt have time for you.  This was a grave error on my part. He was absolutely NOT impressed with your lacing, and did not see any of your work. 

3. You do not now how I write.  I think you are mistaking “how I write” with "things Dave Thatcher is afraid to be confronted with."  The number of people who know what is actually going on with you is growing.  

4. There is a lot of my work on instagram and facebook. I even show how to do urushi.  And I did a bunch of Lacing tutorials so that people can see how easy it is, and do it themselves rather than ask other people to do it for them.  When you took an afternoon of my life to teach you the simplest thing of putting legs on byo. I walked you thoughand taught you and took you to the specialized tool shops to get the necessary tools, and when you went home, you said you couldn’t even do what I told you.  Waste of my time. You came in to my library, and asked to see my work. You were so jealous, you took a photo when I was not looking to try and defame me later.  People should never even allow you in their orbit.  the old Japanese saying “ada uchi” or more specifically;  “on wo ada de kaesu” - to "return indemnity with vengance” is a perfect slogan for you.

******I never showed Dave Thatcher any projects that I was in the middle of.  The one time I allowed him in my workshop, I put away all the commission work or anything I was working on. I have strict rules about keeping my work confidential.  Dave even claimed to having a meeting with me that never occurred. I have not answered emails or made contact with him for a long time now.    I wonder what else Dave Thatcher claims happened with myself or others that never actually took place.  

[Miura]

I do believe that one of the photos above is mine, though it is in a museum and I havent seen if for quite some time.  

[Brian]

So at what point do I lock this, so that one side can decide I don't allow them a rebuttal?
How about this? I lock this at 11am South African time. Anyone who is able to get their comments in before that...yay, go you.
Last word goes to the closest person to 11am my time.
Can't you guys just argue about Biden vs Trump like normal people?

[ROKUJURO]

To me, this purely verbal dispute is useless. I wished I could see some images of work that would certainly speak for themselves.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

24 minutes ago, Brian said:

So at what point do I lock this, so that one side can decide I don't allow them a rebuttal?
How about this? I lock this at 11am South African time. Anyone who is able to get their comments in before that...yay, go you.
Last word goes to the closest person to 11am my time.
Can't you guys just argue about Biden vs Trump like normal people?

There's not a lot of people interested enough in armors, not as much as people interested in Nihonto. This means that if someone with a semblance of authority starts poisoning the well, it destroys it for everyone. From what I've learned by going really in depth and meeting with artisans and reading books, visiting castles and museum, I can agree with Andy that Dave is basically talking out of his ass, willingly or not. 

 

If Dave was presenting himself as a koshirae maker spewing nonsense and trying to make it pass as truth on this forum, he'd likely be kicked out, and everyone would call him out. 

 

I'm mostly interested in armor stuff and I don't want to see people spinning lies about the topic, sharing disinformation was never the point of this forum I wager but here we are. 

It's not about Dave vs Andy, any goddamn Katchushi I managed to meet, or whose work I've seen has had interesting information to share that directly contradicts the claims that Dave made about armor. 

So either most Katchushi in Japan, as well as museum backed books are totally wrong about their field but for some reason Dave, unable to use proper Japanese, isn't for some reason, or maybe he's just lying. 

If you just lock this thread it's going to start over again in a month anyways. Just to say, if it was the same thing about swords, that matter would be dealt with more swiftly. 

 

18 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

To me, this purely verbal dispute is useless. I wished I could see some images of work that would certainly speak for themselves.

Except one side is obviously spewing nonsense, anybody who has read even a few books on the topic, or that even know toddler level of Japanese can notice that maybe Dave doesn't really know what he's speaking about? 

[FrenchBreadPrime]

Also adding this just as a reminder, but when corrected and pressed on the matter, Dave's only answer is avoiding it altogether with the millenia old "I don't have time for this" excuse despite having time to slander well respected people like Nishioka, then making an insultingly unrelated explanation about a long dead historical figure that looks like it was written by chatgpt on a bad day, moving the goalpost with semantics about urushi terms, then bringing up his online nemesis, saying that he shouldn't boast about his skills while he himself boasts about them one line further. 

Again, were this dispute about Nihonto, this matter would already be dealt with.