Thoughts on my bargin bin Type 98

[sleepy_hue]

Hey all, new to this forum, was told it'd be a good place to get some input on my purchase.

 

A little bit ago, I (very impulsively) bought a $650 officer's sword. It seems like one of the very simple late-war production models.

Ignore the tuft of old shirt where the scabbard meets the crossguard- I wanted to make a sock of sorts to prevent the blade from hitting the inside of the scabbard. Also excuse my lack of knowledge for proper terms! I'm very new to this :,)

 

The blade seems alright, no chips or real damage aside from the beginning of some rust. The inside of the scabbard was very rusted and poorly maintained, which seems to have started effecting the blade.

 

The scabbard seems decent enough on the outside, the flower just under the loop is very loose but doesn't seem like itll fall off. The scabbard was very, very rough on the inside though. Basically just a large pit of rust.

 

I haven't removed the grip yet- I'd love to get some input on the tang, but it seems to be a bit fragile and I am worried about damaging it during removal. It looks like the ray(or shark? I've heard both) skin under the wrapping is cracking pretty badly it looks like.

Here's an example. Do you guys think it'd be worth trying to remove? If so, what's the safest way to proceed?

 

Generally the grip is pretty shoddily put together. The fitting isn't amazing, there's lots of gaps. Granted, it's nearly 80 years old, and late production swords are generally "decent" at best and an insult to the craft at worst from what I understand, so I haven't paid it too much mind.

Lots of gaps you can see above, on both sides of the copper(?) fitting.

The hilt is also a little worryingly loose, but the wrap for the grip seems to be threaded through it, so I have hope it'll hold.

 

I think I'm nearing my image limit, let me know if there's anything else you guys would like to see! For $650, I think I could have done worse.

 

Have a great one!

 

 

 

 

[Ghoul]

Looks to me like a nice sword, and welcome to the forum! There's a bit more details on the late war variations here: https://www.Japanese...dex.com/military.htm

 

I'm not really qualified to say any more (although other people here definitely are), but I'd definitely like more pics, since I've never seen one of these in person yet 

 

My only initial thoughts is the habaki and other fittings look like they've been cleaned possibly a bit too well. 

 

Also, 

13 hours ago, sleepy_hue said:

The inside of the scabbard was very rusted and poorly maintained, which seems to have started effecting the blade.

Is there no wooden lining inside the scabbard/saya? (A pic of the inside would be good)

 

13 hours ago, sleepy_hue said:

Here's an example. Do you guys think it'd be worth trying to remove? If so, what's the safest way to proceed?

Other people can hopefully help with this, as you definitely don't want to damage the fittings, but I have a feeling late war swords like this one have not just one mekugi peg, but two - I think I can see a wooden one further down the handle?

[Bruce Pennington]

Logan,

You did well at that price.  George's link is informative.  The full history of this style can be found here: History of the mislabeled Type 3 Sword - by Nick Komiya; and Unveiling the Rinjisieshiki Sword in 1940 - Nick Komiya

 

Kudos for lining your saya.  Rust can really scratch up a blade.  A couple of guys have ventured into making their own wooden liners.  Not technically hard to do, but definitely takes time and effort.  @robinalexander has experience at it, if you want to get his lessons learned.

 

I like the tsuka (handle) wrap on yours.  Nice workmanship.  The skin underneath - same' - is ray skin.  They can crack with age, but you needn't worry about harming it in removing the tsuka.  Tsuka were made for easy removal since ancient times.  Your model, like George said, has two menugi (pins), the screw and a bamboo peg.  Tap the peg out with a punch and simply unscrew the screw.  The tsuka and handguard (tsuba) with spacers (seppa) will slide right off.  The nakago (tang) is likely signed and dated, and will probably have some small stamps I'd like to see for my charts.

[Bruce Pennington]

If you want to tighten the fit of the tsuba/seppa set, you can usually find seppa for sale online.  I once bought a set of 8 or 9 random ones to tighten the fit on a couple of my swords.  They don't cost that much.

[sleepy_hue]

8 hours ago, Ghoul said:

Looks to me like a nice sword, and welcome to the forum! There's a bit more details on the late war variations here: https://www.Japanese...dex.com/military.htm

 

I'm not really qualified to say any more (although other people here definitely are), but I'd definitely like more pics, since I've never seen one of these in person yet 

 

My only initial thoughts is the habaki and other fittings look like they've been cleaned possibly a bit too well. 

 

Also, 

Is there no wooden lining inside the scabbard/saya? (A pic of the inside would be good)

 

Other people can hopefully help with this, as you definitely don't want to damage the fittings, but I have a feeling late war swords like this one have not just one mekugi peg, but two - I think I can see a wooden one further down the handle?

Thank you! I'm happy to be here. And thanks for the site, I'll definitely check it out! I'll try to get some more pictures for you guys soon.

Here's a shot of the inside of the scabbard, no lining at all. Just bare metal, which has rusted pretty badly. I was able to clean it a good bit with a bore brush and a lot of time haha, but there's still rust down there for sure.

 

I also believe you are right about there being two pins! I just didn't show the other haha. One is a screw, and the other is a proper bamboo pin. Here's a photo of the bamboo pin :

Not too pretty, maybe someone else tried(and failed) to remove it?

[sleepy_hue]

4 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Logan,

You did well at that price.  George's link is informative.  The full history of this style can be found here: History of the mislabeled Type 3 Sword - by Nick Komiya; and Unveiling the Rinjisieshiki Sword in 1940 - Nick Komiya

 

Kudos for lining your saya.  Rust can really scratch up a blade.  A couple of guys have ventured into making their own wooden liners.  Not technically hard to do, but definitely takes time and effort.  @robinalexander has experience at it, if you want to get his lessons learned.

 

I like the tsuka (handle) wrap on yours.  Nice workmanship.  The skin underneath - same' - is ray skin.  They can crack with age, but you needn't worry about harming it in removing the tsuka.  Tsuka were made for easy removal since ancient times.  Your model, like George said, has two menugi (pins), the screw and a bamboo peg.  Tap the peg out with a punch and simply unscrew the screw.  The tsuka and handguard (tsuba) with spacers (seppa) will slide right off.  The nakago (tang) is likely signed and dated, and will probably have some small stamps I'd like to see for my charts.

Thank you for the sites as well, Bruce! I got some reading to do tonight haha, thankfully this topic is a very interesting one.

 

Lining it was one of my first thoughts- the blade was just rattling around in there! That can't be healthy for it, and the rust that was on the inside may be the reason for the blemishes on the blade. Atleast there aren't any chips or cracks that I've seen. I definitely want to see about doing a proper traditional lining for it, though it may take awhile to get there.

 

I'll try to see about removing the tsuka and getting a picture of the tang for you. Hopefully it wont be too corroded like some examples I've seen.

 

I'll also see about tightening it some- I know its generally a very bad practice to see about restoring or replacing parts of what is essentially(atleast, to me) historical relic of sorts, but I think the low-price and general lack of rarity or providence with this model makes it a little more acceptable. I've heard some people(I don't remember if here or elsewhere) throw around the idea of restoring particulary beat examples, one's more damaged than mine for sure, but that must be an awfully expensive process.

 

[sleepy_hue]

After some VERY careful tomfoolery and learning that both my pins are essentially useless, I got some tang pictures. Anyone spot anything in particular worth noting?

 

And @Bruce Pennington, sadly, I didn't see any stamps at all.

 

[ROKUJURO]

NAGAMITSU 1944

[sleepy_hue]

36 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

NAGAMITSU 1944

Nagamitsu, as in Ichihara Nagamitsu? Does that mean this is one of the rarer hand-made blades from the late 40s? 

 

Thanks for your help translating by the way! I really appreciate it!

[Gerry]

31 minutes ago, sleepy_hue said:

Nagamitsu, as in Ichihara Nagamitsu? Does that mean this is one of the rarer hand-made blades from the late 40s? 

 

Thanks for your help translating by the way! I really appreciate it!

Unfortunately, this isn't Ichihara Naganitsu, but the showato Nagamitsu instead. 

[sleepy_hue]

15 minutes ago, Gerry said:

Unfortunately, this isn't Ichihara Naganitsu, but the showato Nagamitsu instead. 

Ah, I understand. Thank you for the correction! This is the site I was using, the signature under T seems to match pretty well(Granted, its said to be one of the ones used by his students/apprentices). Any idea if the blade would be machine-made or traditionally made? If traditionally made, it seems pretty unique to find it in such a late pattern of sword.

[Bruce Pennington]

October 1944 to be exact.

 

You would have to show some clear close-up shots of the blade and temper line so guys can give you a better idea how the blade was made. There are plenty of traditionally made blades in the “Type 3” fittings, but they are usually higher quality than this. I have one of a rare star stamped blade, in other words traditionally made, in this exact style fitting, but it is unusual to find them that way.

[sleepy_hue]

55 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

October 1944 to be exact.

 

You would have to show some clear close-up shots of the blade and temper line so guys can give you a better idea how the blade was made. There are plenty of traditionally made blades in the “Type 3” fittings, but they are usually higher quality than this. I have one of a rare star stamped blade, in other words traditionally made, in this exact style fitting, but it is unusual to find them that way.

There's no temper line that I can see- whether that's due to wear or not I'm not sure. I'll see if I can get some good pictures of the grain when I get home.

[sleepy_hue]

@Bruce PenningtonHere you go! Feel free to tag whoever you think needs to see these. Let me know if you need anything more specific.

 

 

Heres the right side

[sleepy_hue]

And here's the left

[sleepy_hue]

And two close-ups from the clearest spots I could find on either side

 

[Gerry]

It looks like someone did a pretty thorough buffing job on the blade, so you can't tell much detail of the temper any longer.

[sleepy_hue]

11 minutes ago, Gerry said:

It looks like someone did a pretty thorough buffing job on the blade, so you can tell much detail of the temper any longer.

May possibly be true, I wouldn't be suprised. I bought it from a friend who had just recently bought it from a man who claimed he purchased it "over 25 years ago", very real possibility the original veteran who brought it back simply let it rust, the man had tried to clean/"""restore""" it, and ended up selling it to my friend. Would also explain the weird damage to the bamboo pin and the fact it and the screw don't seem to fit right or anything.

[Brian]

Definitely has a hamon. Probably oil quenched. But you won't see it in that condition.

[Bruce Pennington]

Straight, or suguha, hamon. You can clearly see it in the third photograph.

[sleepy_hue]

8 hours ago, Brian said:

Definitely has a hamon. Probably oil quenched. But you won't see it in that condition.

It's a shame that it can't be seen. I assume there's not much that can be done for it as this point aside having an artificial one put on, but even then, it would stick out like a sore thumb going off of the general wear of the blade.

 

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Straight, or suguha, hamon. You can clearly see it in the third photograph.

I will say- some of those photos have the blade at an angle rather than straight on to reduce the glare from my lights. It is quite a shiny blade all things considered, it may simply be reflecting my sheets haha.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, sleepy_hue said:

I assume there's not much that can be done for it

You still have 2 choices - keep as is, with TLC; or pay $2,000+ for a professional polish.  They can bring it back to life if you are willing to pay that price.

 

Except for my Dad's Mantetsu, I've kept mine in their current condition, blades that is.  The fittings I find the missing parts to bring it back to proper operational condition where possible.  As long as you are using WWII parts, you are not doing anything the original owner wouldn't have done for missing or damaged parts.

[Kiipu]

My two-cents.

1.  Do not store it in the scabbard as it lacks a scabbard throat and wooden liners.

2. Get a shirasaya made for the blade.  A shirasaya is a wooden handle and scabbard made to fit the blade and habaki.

[Ghoul]

3 hours ago, sleepy_hue said:

aside having an artificial one put on

 

Just to follow on from what others have said, the hamon is still there, it is just obscured, and its original wartime history and fittings are still very much intact.

 

 

14 hours ago, sleepy_hue said:

the man had tried to clean/"restore" it

This is very likely what's happened - even the tang looks to me like it has been cleaned, which is very bad practice if so. 

 

But it's still a really cool piece! And even if it isn't economic to restore it now, it's only going to get rarer with time 🙂

 

(Also please don't try sharpening it yourself, uchiko is the only diy option I have ever seen recommend here, and even that is debated)

[sleepy_hue]

36 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

You still have 2 choices - keep as is, with TLC; or pay $2,000+ for a professional polish.  They can bring it back to life if you are willing to pay that price.

 

Except for my Dad's Mantetsu, I've kept mine in their current condition, blades that is.  The fittings I find the missing parts to bring it back to proper operational condition where possible.  As long as you are using WWII parts, you are not doing anything the original owner wouldn't have done for missing or damaged parts.

While I do have enough money spare to play with the idea, ultimately I think that the money would be better spent on a nicer example to begin with. A different friend of mine, one who collects IJA goodies, has a earlier war-production Gendaito blade shin-gunto with all the bells and whistles- and it's half that price. While it is a historical sword nonetheless and a Gendaito as far as I understand, it's just not something that should have that much money dropped into it when it could be spent on another blade entirely if I wanted something prettier.

 

I'm definitely interested in seeing about swapping out some parts on the tsuka(or the entire tsuka if I need to) considering it seems to be a bit busted from whatever, whichever previous owner did with it. Though, at the same time, part of me would rather keep it 100% original. At this point, it's no longer really a weapon. Just a historical relic from days gone.

[sleepy_hue]

12 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

My two-cents.

1.  Do not store it in the scabbard as it lacks a scabbard throat and wooden liners.

2. Get a shirasaya made for the blade.  A shirasaya is a wooden handle and scabbard made to fit the blade and habaki.

I'll keep this in mind! Thank you.

 

10 minutes ago, Ghoul said:

 

Just to follow on from what others have said, the hamon is still there, it is just obscured, and its original wartime history and fittings are still very much intact.

 

 

This is very likely what's happened - even the tang looks to me like it has been cleaned, which is *very* bad practice if so. 

 

But it's still a really cool piece! And even if it isn't economic to restore it now, it's only going to get rarer with time 🙂

 

(Also please don't try sharpening it yourself, uchiko is the only diy option I have ever been recommend here, and even that is debated)

Haha that much is true- it still has it's history behind it. I suppose that(and the cheap price!) is what originally drew me to it. It's a shame that it's been tampered with in that regard, but alas, what can I do about it now? I can only treat it with the proper care that the last owner didn't. Also, I didn't plan to sharpen it haha. I don't have enough knowledge to want to attempt to do so.