Is there a Kaigun Jumei Tosho mark?

[george trotter]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I have a question...I was just looking at Slough p.113 and noticed a smith classified as a Kaigun Jumei Tosho. The oshigata shown does not have any acceptance mark visible (i.e. a navy equivalent of the army star stamp seen on the works of Rikugun Jumei Tosho), so it made me wonder if there was a mark used by the navy? Anyone have knowledge on this?

 

I have had / seen a number of good quality Kaigunto in hand over the decades, but from memory, none had any type of acceptance mark, so, just wondering...

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi George, my observations have been the same on Gendai-To found in Kai Gunto mounts, in that no special stamps or unique marks are to be found.

[Bruce Pennington]

I know of none.  

 

Are there documents that discuss/describe the KJT program?  I have seen the term mentioned, scattered here and there, but know nothing about it.

[Kiipu]

I have only one possible traditional blade that could be naval marked.  However, no date was mentioned nor shown.  So it could be prewar?

Shigemitsu

[Bruce Pennington]

Boy, that blade is a conglomeration of mysteries!

 

Kokuin with mystery stamp above it

 

Anchor without circle and kissing ducks/mustache stamp below it

 

An undated Shigemotsu blade.

[mecox]

George and mates. Briefly,  from what I can make out "Kaigun Jumei Tosho" were contracted smiths working within Naval Arsenals/bases/tanrenjo. None that I found are in RJT lists.  However, smiths employed in arsenals (e.g. Kokura) dont get star stamps even when using tamahagane.  Of course, sometimes these KJT also used stainless steel.

In the Fukuoka list I am doing the following are KJT:  MASAMITSU So, MITSUYASU Matsunage, TADAMITSU Naga, all of these did work at Sasebo Naval base, where SHIGEMITSU Suetsugu had a productive tanrenjo (but he is not referred to as KJT)

 

Some others listed as KJT:  KANEMOTO Kaneko, KANEYOSHI Matsubara (at Toyokawa), KOSHITERU Maeda (he has a forge at a small base at Miho up in Tottori) 

So I havent seen stars of other naval type stamps except an anchor

[george trotter]

Thanks guys...interesting.

Mal san...many years ago I had a Suetsugu SHIGEMITSU blade (undated) in Kaigunto mounts and it had no navy mark. And looking up the Matsubara KANEYOSHI you mention (I saw it in Slough p.73) it says he was Kaigun Jumei Tosho but the 1942 dated  oshigata shown has no navy mark either.

So, I think you might be right...there were a number of what are termed 'Kaigun Jumei Tosho' but they do not seem to be a  'Navy Version' of the Army's RJT scheme. Maybe it is simply a term used to describe a smith who worked officially for the Navy in one of their arsenals? maybe this is why no 'list' of Navy smiths has ever been compiled...there was no official KJT scheme set up like the RJT scheme...they were 'just' employees?

Thanks...

[Bruce Pennington]

11 hours ago, mecox said:

However, smiths employed in arsenals (e.g. Kokura) dont get star stamps even when using tamahagane.

 

Hopefully not sidetracking the topic, but I have 5 blades from 4 RJT smiths with "Tokyo 1st Arsenal" in their mei - Naotake, Nobutake, Noriaki, and Katsunobu. - all star stamped.  I don't know if the arsenal name being in the mei means they were employed at the arsenal, or if they were simply noting that the blades were being made for Tokyo 1st?

 

On a related note, I have 2 blades with "Kasuga Workshop" in the mei.  Fumitada and Yoshinori, both from Oita.  I mention these as the pattern of naming their workplace seems to inline with indicating the Tokyo 1st blades might have been made at the arsenal.

[mecox]

Interesting Bruce. The trend at Kokura looks like no star with arsenal smiths......but may be only with ones I have seen?

I have listed Noriaki with Tokyo 1st, as he was originally from Fukuoka.   Does he have a dated blade?

I have Fumitada and Yoshinori, and they are late March and May 1945, when Kokura was relocated to Kasuga and things were changing a bit.

[Bruce Pennington]

18 minutes ago, mecox said:

Noriaki with Tokyo 1st, as he was originally from Fukuoka.   Does he have a dated blade?

Sorry, no.  It's from Slough, pg 135.  Don't have an actual of his on file.

 

The May '45 Fumitada and Yoshinori are the same ones I have.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 6/24/2024 at 9:07 PM, mecox said:

 

I have listed Noriaki with Tokyo 1st, as he was originally from Fukuoka.   Does he have a dated blade?

 

德顯（Noriaki)no date

 

 

[mecox]

Ive only seen 2, including Slough p. 135, both undated.

[Kiipu]

On 6/23/2024 at 6:28 PM, mecox said:

smiths employed in arsenals don't get star stamps

 

The oldest blade from Ōsaka Forge and the three oldest from Kokura did not have stars; however, all the rest did.  Summary below.

 

Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal, dated 1942-1944, serial number range is 47 to 644.

8 blades: 6 stars, 2 unknown.

 

Ōsaka Army Arsenal, all dated 1944, all six from Sadashige 貞重.

6 blades: 1 starless, 4 stars, 1 unknown.

 

Kokura Army Arsenal, dated 1944-1945.

6 blades: 3 starless, 3 stars.

[Bruce Pennington]

Again, my apologies George for running off track, but this discussion reminded me of your translation of an Ohmura page:

 

"HONTANRENTO (True forged swords)

1. Swordsmiths were commissioned to forge swords at the named workshop's forge (the nakago was marked with the swordsmith's mei and the workshop's logo/mark). Tokyo Hohei Kosho: Yokoyama Sukekane, Morioka Masayoshi; Tokyo No 1 Army Workshop: Yoshihara Nobushiro, (Akihiro, Kuniiye same man); Osaka Kosho: Gassan Sadakatsu, Sadakazu (nidai), Sadashige, Masakiyo; Kokura Kosho: Hakuryushi Tadataka, Taira Sadashige, Kanenobu; Kyuheikisho (refurbishment workshop): Yoshihara, others.

[NO STAR, MEI, SHOP LOGO, BUT GENDAITO]

 

2. Private swordsmiths, and also Sword companies were commissioned to forge swords (nakago marked with mei and simple Army Star inspection mark).

[MEI, STAR, BUT NO DATE]

 

3. Army specification Gendai forged swords (nakago marked with mei, date and star). Rikugun Jumei Tosho made swords of the style. They were trialled from Sho 15 [1940]. From Sho 17 [1942] it was implemented nationally. For efficiency, a big break was made with the tradition of individualistic handwork and non-uniformity of Nihonto "True Standardisation" was tried for the first time. Every sword was subjected to severe inspection to maintain quality/performance. (I am not sure if I have translated the following correctly) The former drawback of testing each sword (as in old sword making in meito times) by tameshigiri was not used. This was the first time such a situation occurred."

[MEI, DATE, STAR]

 

So, these Noriaki blades, along with several others on file without dates, are examples of Item 2 - blades made with Army tamahagne, in a private forge, or sword company workshop.

 

I also am still puzzled by Item 1 saying swords would be "marked with the swordsmith's mei and the workshop's logo/mark".  I don't know about "Tokyo Hohei Kosho", but the "Osaka Kosho" is probably the Saka stamp, right?  Also, I just noticed the mention of "Tokyo No 1 Army Workshop" and see that we don't have a stamp for that factory.  We have the "TO" for Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal Inspector and the "KI" for the 2nd Factory of Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal, but no 1st Factory.  There are a few seemingly random blades with unknown marks we have been speculating as "workshop logo/mark", could these be fitting this Item 1 category?  It would take extensive time and research to find those blades and try to guess if they blades were gendaito.

 

Hm, sorry for the complicated post, but this all has opened up questions.

[george trotter]

For those interested in my translation, look up 'Star Stamped Swords' which is my post of Nov 25th 2010. I give the details of the article by Ohmura that I translated. 

I must say Bruce, we are still pretty much in the dark about some aspects of stamped swords aren't we.

Have a read folks...it might help this present discussion.

 

I must say that I have only acquired star stamped swords since those times so my collection does seem pretty well "stable" in assessing origin of blade/maker/quality and mark meaning...this 'focus on RJT' by me is what led me to ask my question above about navy KJT smiths - as I have little knowledge about them.

Regards...