Thoughts? Tsuba. Man looking at dragon in clouds

[Steves87]

Good memory George, I vaguely remember that thread. Whenever I refer to this guy from now on, I'll be using "Handaka (possibly Chinnan) Sennin"....

 

 

Great to see Stevenk's posts again, too. He was the first guy to reach out to me on here.

[Spartancrest]

Just found this in an old catalogue    Mrs. H.O. Havemeyer, donated over 150 tsuba to the Metropolitan Museum, some of their best.

The estate of Mrs. H.O. Havemeyer.  
Japanese & Chinese art  [Part III]
Publication date 1930

 

The description is a little off! 28. Bronze tsuba, Large oval form for great sword, embossed and parcel-gilded with figure of an old magician evoking a dragon from a smoking koro; reverse engraved with a pine branch. Signed SHUNMEI.

[GeorgeLuucas]

Here is the opinion of CHAT GBT - which is an artificial intelligence used to search the internet for answers.

AI is not perfect, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but sometimes offers a interesting perspective which seems to imply that both legends have melded to an extent:

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QUESTION: In Japanese folklore; what is the difference between Chinnan Sonja and Handaka Sennin?

 

ChatGPT:

In Japanese folklore, Chinnan Sonja (also known as Chinnan Shōnin or Chinnan Sennin) and Handaka Sennin are both revered as legendary figures associated with immortality and supernatural powers, often depicted in Taoist and Buddhist contexts. Here are the key differences between them:

1. Chinnan Sonja (Chinnan Sennin):

   • Background: Chinnan Sonja is typically associated with Taoist practices and is considered an immortal or sage who has achieved enlightenment and longevity through spiritual cultivation.
   • Attributes: He is often depicted with mystical powers, such as the ability to control the elements, fly on a cloud, or perform miraculous feats.
   • Cultural Significance: Chinnan Sonja is revered in Japanese folklore for his wisdom and his ability to teach others the path to enlightenment and immortality.

2. Handaka Sennin:

   • Background: Handaka Sennin is another legendary figure in Japanese folklore, often associated with more localized traditions or regional myths.
   • Attributes: Like Chinnan Sonja, Handaka Sennin is portrayed as an immortal or a wise hermit who possesses supernatural abilities.
   • Cultural Significance: Handaka Sennin may be known for specific tales or stories that highlight his interactions with other characters or his teachings, often emphasizing moral lessons or insights.

Key Differences:

• Origin: Chinnan Sonja is more commonly associated with broader cultural and religious contexts, such as Taoism and Buddhism, whereas Handaka Sennin might be linked to more localized or regional traditions within Japan.
• Teachings: While both figures may impart wisdom and spiritual teachings, their specific philosophies or moral lessons could differ based on the stories and legends associated with them.
• Iconography: In art and literature, Chinnan Sonja and Handaka Sennin may be depicted differently, reflecting their respective backgrounds and the cultural contexts in which they are revered.

Overall, both Chinnan Sonja and Handaka Sennin represent aspects of wisdom, longevity, and the pursuit of spiritual enlightenment within Japanese folklore, with variations depending on the specific tales and traditions in which they appear.

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All the best,
-Sam

[SteveM]

7 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The link goes into the possibilities

 

Allow me to push back on this a bit, because the link doesn't go into other possibilities. What it says is that there is a book (circa 1970s?) that labels the figure as Tekkai Sennin, but the author of the website says that Tekkai Sennin appears on a different panel of this item (its a parade float used in festivals), and that it is impossible to think that Tekkai Sennin would be appear doubly on this float. The other figures listed on that page are various sages located on different panels of the float.  

 

So the website does identify the figure as Chinnan Sennin - and the author then says while Chinnan Sennin is typically depicted with an iron staff, here he is shown with a bowl just as in Tachibana Morikuni's book, "Treasure Bag of Illustrations" published in 1720. If I go digging for this book from 1720, I can see the following picture clearly labelled as Chinnan Sennin.

 

Chinnan Sennin circa 1720, Tachibana Morikuni.

https://etoki.kawamu...io.com/tomo/b/b-355/

 

The author of the website further states that it is unusual for Chinnan to be depicted with a bowl, and that he can only find this one example - so the oddity is noted*. But then he notes that elsewhere there is a picture of Taoist immortal Lu Dongbin (呂洞賓) who is also depicted with a dragon being conjured from a bowl (picture below), so the author wonders how to interpret these various depictions. Anyway, this "conjuring a dragon from a bowl" seems to have been something of a trope in medieval China, and was a magical skill that several near-mythical figures possessed. 

 

Lu Dongbin releases a dragon from a bowl.

https://images.dnpar...kDetail?id=MFA116601

 

As a side note, the illustration from 1720 is nearly identical to the one noted in the thread that @Tanto54 linked to earlier (which I had also forgotten about). Funny to note we've been mulling over these figures for nearly a decade now.  

 

Chinnan Sennin conjuring a dragon from a bowl. Nishimura Shigenaga c. 1722

https://archive.org/...panese_chinnan_37263

 

*And just to sort of further refute the claim that it is rare to see Chinnan Sennin with a bowl, here are three other depictions (all from Shinto shrines).

 

Chinnan Sennin conjuring a dragon from a bowl. From the Suwa Jinja in Saitama.

https://ameblo.jp/da...try-12759072218.html

 

Chinnan Sennin conjuring a dragon from a bowl. From the Kotohira shrine in Gunma

https://ameblo.jp/da...809-15271844579.html

 

Chinnan Sennin with a child, conjuring a dragon from a bowl. From the Ippongi Inari shrine, also in Gunma

https://ameblo.jp/da...582-15165744021.html

 

@GeorgeLuucas  the AI could well be scraping these very threads for information, so the echo chamber could just be growing louder and louder. Eventually the "signal to noise ratio" becomes so bad its unbearable. Also note that the terms you fed into the AI (Chinnan Sonja and Handaka Sennin) are mixed up themselves, so even though the AI somewhat self-corrected, the feedback is going to be slightly suspicious.