Thoughts? Tsuba. Man looking at dragon in clouds

[Scogg]

Recently I got a new little sword that had this tsuba on it. It didn’t fit very well, and I had another that fit better. Now this one is a loose tsuba in my collection that I’m developing a curiosity about. 
 

Would love your opinions! Fittings are outside my focus but I’m enjoying learning everything I can. 

Some observations of my own include:

- The green tarnish around the yellow dots.

- Raw glossy metal showing in the nakago-ana.

- Seems thin compared to my others.

Thoughts? 

Cheers,

-Sam
 

[Lewis B]

Cautious to pass comments but my personal feeling is that something (many) things look off. The green oxidation looks applied or forced, the quality of the carving is equally unconvincing. To me it looks like a reproduction. How was it described and where?

[Scogg]

1 hour ago, Lewis B said:

Cautious to pass comments but my personal feeling is that something (many) things look off. The green oxidation looks applied or forced, the quality of the carving is equally unconvincing. To me it looks like a reproduction. How was it described and where?

It had no description whatsoever. It was just on a sword I received, and it fit poorly. I was able to replace it with another Tsuba that happened to fit very nicely. This one came from the sword in my previous post in the Nihonto subforum "Am I on the right track?".

I agree that it feels off! I am certainly suspicious, but I don't have the knowledge to state anything factually. It won't hurt my feeling to receive bad news on this one. Like many of my posts, I just want information and hopefully I can learn something. 

 

I don't particularly like it aesthetically... It's simply not my style. I prefer more simple subject matter that depict Mon, animals, or plants. 
Cheers,
-Sam

Edited June 21, 2024 by GeorgeLuucas
Strikethrough

[Geraint]

Dear Sam.

 

I don't think anything is wrong with this tsuba other than some wear and a rather poor attempt on someone's part to make it fit a nakago, hence the rather bizarre marks around the nakago ana. These suggest to me that the tsuba was probably added to your sword some time after it left Japan so probably no problem with changing it for a better fit.   If you want to do some research start looking around Kaneiye, I suspect this is one of the many works copying his style.

 

All the best.

 

 

[Scogg]

Great info Geraint, thank you very much! 

I'll enjoy looking into Kaneiye.

Cheers,
-Sam

[Matsunoki]

Perfectly genuine old tsuba of a Sennin (can’t remember his name right now) releasing his dragon from his censor/begging bowl. . Well known subject. Nothing looks “off” and it’s not really helpful to say that. It’s just showing its age. It’s something like Handaka Sennin….annoyed at my memory sometimes. 

[Matsunoki]

…..and the green is simply ingrained oxidation left by a copper seppa.

[Lewis B]

8 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Perfectly genuine old tsuba of a Sennin (can’t remember his name right now) releasing his dragon from his censor/begging bowl. . Well known subject. Nothing looks “off” and it’s not really helpful to say that. It’s just showing its age. It’s something like Handaka Sennin….annoyed at my memory sometimes. 

When I was writing I was looking at the last picture, but after looking again at the first image the relief in that image looks a lot better. Apologies for casting aspersions. 

[Scogg]

Thank you Colin, thats very helpful. Knowing that it's depicting a known motif, Sennin releasing his dragon, makes me like it more!

 

The one thing I DO really like about it, is the tiny brass/gold/yellow eye of the dragon. I thought that was a nice touch. 

Thanks again everyone. You've helped ease my suspicions, and given me some great things to look into! 
Cheers,
-Sam

 

[ROKUJURO]

The verdigris is the result of a chemical reaction of the brass inlays with fatty acids (from well-intended care actions). You can (and should) brush that simply away with the toothbrush of your wife. Probably this has to be repeated a few times.

Otherwise my impression is that this is an authentic TSUBA that has seen some corrosion, but is generally o.k. The bare metal in the NAKAGO-ANA shows that it has been fitted to another blade rather recently.

[Bugyotsuji]

Kaneiye is the old Victorian spelling, so check out Kaneie too, for a wider net.

[Bugyotsuji]

Try Ryu Sennin. 

[Scogg]

Thank you Piers! 
 

Those suggestions really opened up my searches.

 

Always fun to look into a new piece. 

Much appreciated,

Cheers! 
-Sam 

[Steves87]

Handaka Sennin it seems. I have read that Tekkai Sennin can also change into a dragon or a human figure though. I have this one with both Gamma Sennin, Tekkai Sennin, and Handaka Sennin, which shows the dragon form at the 12 o'clock.

Edited June 22, 2024 by Steves87
Corrected the incorrect sennin Chinnan to Handaka

[Matsunoki]

I still reckon Handaka🙂…..

https://www.metmuseu...ection/search/749409

 

one of mine with same subject…

 

 

[Matsunoki]

 

8 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Try Ryu Sennin. 

Hi Piers, Actually I think Ryu and Handaka are the same Sennin? Darned confusing all these Sennin! Why can’t they have just one name🙂

[Geraint]

Dear Piers.

 

Quote

Kaneiye is the old Victorian spelling

Well, that just says everything you need to know about me! 

 

All the best.

[Steves87]

5 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I still reckon Handaka🙂…..

https://www.metmuseu...ection/search/749409

 

one of mine with same subject…

 

 

 

Yep, you have convinced me, after some more searching I definitely agree Handaka (the bamboo cutter?)... it explains the cane too

[Spartancrest]

I agree with Jean, a legit piece - but as otherwise stated the tagane marks were not done by a specialist and may be much more recent - it is lucky more damage was not done. [cover with a seppa no worries!]

 

   Rakan Handaka with Dragon

 

 

 

    https://www.lempertz...te-19th-century.html  The dragon has gone lowline in this remarkable piece 

 

 

[SteveM]

I would love to know how to tell the difference between Handaka Sonja and Chinnan Sennin. I looked around, but I don't think any of the sites I visited really know what they are talking about, and I bet there are a lot of images on both English-speaking and Japanese-speaking sites which are confidently mislabeling these figures. I'm certain they are different figures: Chinnan is a taoist sage, and Handaka Sonja is a buddhist arhat/ascetic. That both are depicted as conjuring a dragon out of a bowl is an extraordinary coincidence, and is certainly the reason why some items appear to be mislabeled. Chinnan Sennin apparently ended a drought by conjuring a rain dragon, so I think he is often depicted with rain. The main narrative is that he conjured a rain dragon by throwing his staff into the clouds, or an iron staff with a whip attached to it. I don't know how he came to be identified with an alms bowl. 

 

Handaka Sonja seems to be slightly more popular in iconography, and is most often using an bowl to conjure a dragon. He is either naked from the waist up, or has his robe slipping around his upper body. His head is either bald (like a Buddhist monk) or is wild and ungroomed. All the ones in Dale's post above would appear to be Handaka Sonja. I reckon the figure in the very first tsuba in this thread might be Chinnan Sennin. 

 

Maybe one of our Chinese-speaking/reading members can give some more insight. 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

……and the confusion deepens🙂

I’m pretty certain that the artists who actually made these tsuba often were not sure exactly who they were depicting. I doubt they were expert in Chinese/Japanese/ Buddhist/Taoist etc  iconography. Very often the designs were taken from early texts…..scrolls, prints etc so I figure there was considerable artistic licence and interpretation involved.

[Matsunoki]

18 minutes ago, SteveM said:

I reckon the figure in the very first tsuba in this thread might be Chinnan Sennin. 

Yes but….you can see the dragons vapour trail emanating upwards from where a bowl would be held (had it not been hidden under the seppadai). No sign of a hurled staff/whip etc🙂🙂

Good fun these debates.

 

[Scogg]

Just chiming in again to say, I love the direction this thread has gone, and I’m enjoying seeing these incredible tsuba with similar depictions. 
 

Cheers!

[SteveM]

1 hour ago, SteveM said:

That both are depicted as conjuring a dragon out of a bowl is an extraordinary coincidence,

 

What I meant by this is that you can find both figures being depicted with a bowl (independent of this thread). So the presence (or lack of) a bowl wouldn't be a giveaway. The figure below is identified as Chinnan Sennin. 

https://www.syo-kaza...hinnan/chinnan1.html

 

But as above, I am not sure of the defining criteria. The site above could be mistaken. 

[Matsunoki]

17 minutes ago, SteveM said:

The site above could be mistaken. 

As indeed could I. 
So much is lost in the mists of time - both fascinating and frustrating at the same time.

 

[Spartancrest]

Just a wild thought here - could the tsubako be covering BOTH bases? It would double his clientele and if we can't tell the difference, would the tsuba buyer have been able?  

[Spartancrest]

   I can't translate the caption on this tsuba taken from Zabo Tansen by Kenichi Kokubo & Kenzo Ootsubo

 

The dragon is once again 'lowline' and for me at least looks a lot like a very thin lizard!  There is another tsuba on page 223 of the same book very similar to the one posted by Colin H. above.

[Bugyotsuji]

和尚竜児

Just means priest and baby dragon, I think, Dale.

[Tanto54]

 

[Bugyotsuji]

On 6/22/2024 at 6:52 PM, SteveM said:

 

What I meant by this is that you can find both figures being depicted with a bowl (independent of this thread). So the presence (or lack of) a bowl wouldn't be a giveaway. The figure below is identified as Chinnan Sennin. 

https://www.syo-kaza...hinnan/chinnan1.html

 

But as above, I am not sure of the defining criteria. The site above could be mistaken. 

The link goes into the possibilities, suggesting Chinnan Sennin, but also presents an alternative, thus not trying to be definitive.

 

It does appear that several legends have melded together, as you often find with Netsuké.