GeorgeLuucas Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Recently I got a new little sword that had this tsuba on it. It didn’t fit very well, and I had another that fit better. Now this one is a loose tsuba in my collection that I’m developing a curiosity about. Would love your opinions! Fittings are outside my focus but I’m enjoying learning everything I can. Some observations of my own include: - The green tarnish around the yellow dots. - Raw glossy metal showing in the nakago-ana. - Seems thin compared to my others. Thoughts? Cheers, -Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis B Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Cautious to pass comments but my personal feeling is that something (many) things look off. The green oxidation looks applied or forced, the quality of the carving is equally unconvincing. To me it looks like a reproduction. How was it described and where? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeLuucas Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lewis B said: Cautious to pass comments but my personal feeling is that something (many) things look off. The green oxidation looks applied or forced, the quality of the carving is equally unconvincing. To me it looks like a reproduction. How was it described and where? It had no description whatsoever. It was just on a sword I received, and it fit poorly. I was able to replace it with another Tsuba that happened to fit very nicely. This one came from the sword in my previous post in the Nihonto subforum "Am I on the right track?". I agree that it feels off! I am certainly suspicious, but I don't have the knowledge to state anything factually. It won't hurt my feeling to receive bad news on this one. Like many of my posts, I just want information and hopefully I can learn something. I don't particularly like it aesthetically... It's simply not my style. I prefer more simple subject matter that depict Mon, animals, or plants. Cheers, -Sam Edited June 21 by GeorgeLuucas Strikethrough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geraint Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Dear Sam. I don't think anything is wrong with this tsuba other than some wear and a rather poor attempt on someone's part to make it fit a nakago, hence the rather bizarre marks around the nakago ana. These suggest to me that the tsuba was probably added to your sword some time after it left Japan so probably no problem with changing it for a better fit. If you want to do some research start looking around Kaneiye, I suspect this is one of the many works copying his style. All the best. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeLuucas Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 Great info Geraint, thank you very much! I'll enjoy looking into Kaneiye. Cheers, -Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Perfectly genuine old tsuba of a Sennin (can’t remember his name right now) releasing his dragon from his censor/begging bowl. . Well known subject. Nothing looks “off” and it’s not really helpful to say that. It’s just showing its age. It’s something like Handaka Sennin….annoyed at my memory sometimes. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 …..and the green is simply ingrained oxidation left by a copper seppa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis B Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 8 minutes ago, Matsunoki said: Perfectly genuine old tsuba of a Sennin (can’t remember his name right now) releasing his dragon from his censor/begging bowl. . Well known subject. Nothing looks “off” and it’s not really helpful to say that. It’s just showing its age. It’s something like Handaka Sennin….annoyed at my memory sometimes. When I was writing I was looking at the last picture, but after looking again at the first image the relief in that image looks a lot better. Apologies for casting aspersions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeLuucas Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 Thank you Colin, thats very helpful. Knowing that it's depicting a known motif, Sennin releasing his dragon, makes me like it more! The one thing I DO really like about it, is the tiny brass/gold/yellow eye of the dragon. I thought that was a nice touch. Thanks again everyone. You've helped ease my suspicions, and given me some great things to look into! Cheers, -Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROKUJURO Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 The verdigris is the result of a chemical reaction of the brass inlays with fatty acids (from well-intended care actions). You can (and should) brush that simply away with the toothbrush of your wife. Probably this has to be repeated a few times. Otherwise my impression is that this is an authentic TSUBA that has seen some corrosion, but is generally o.k. The bare metal in the NAKAGO-ANA shows that it has been fitted to another blade rather recently. 1 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Kaneiye is the old Victorian spelling, so check out Kaneie too, for a wider net. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Try Ryu Sennin. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeLuucas Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 Thank you Piers! Those suggestions really opened up my searches. Always fun to look into a new piece. Much appreciated, Cheers! -Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steves87 Posted June 22 Report Share Posted June 22 (edited) Handaka Sennin it seems. I have read that Tekkai Sennin can also change into a dragon or a human figure though. I have this one with both Gamma Sennin, Tekkai Sennin, and Handaka Sennin, which shows the dragon form at the 12 o'clock. Edited Saturday at 11:56 PM by Steves87 Corrected the incorrect sennin Chinnan to Handaka 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 22 Report Share Posted June 22 I still reckon Handaka🙂….. https://www.metmuseu...ection/search/749409 one of mine with same subject… 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 22 Report Share Posted June 22 8 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said: Try Ryu Sennin. Hi Piers, Actually I think Ryu and Handaka are the same Sennin? Darned confusing all these Sennin! Why can’t they have just one name🙂 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geraint Posted June 22 Report Share Posted June 22 Dear Piers. Quote Kaneiye is the old Victorian spelling Well, that just says everything you need to know about me! All the best. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steves87 Posted June 22 Report Share Posted June 22 5 hours ago, Matsunoki said: I still reckon Handaka🙂….. https://www.metmuseu...ection/search/749409 one of mine with same subject… Yep, you have convinced me, after some more searching I definitely agree Handaka (the bamboo cutter?)... it explains the cane too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted Saturday at 02:14 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 02:14 PM I agree with Jean, a legit piece - but as otherwise stated the tagane marks were not done by a specialist and may be much more recent - it is lucky more damage was not done. [cover with a seppa no worries!] Rakan Handaka with Dragon https://www.lempertz...te-19th-century.html The dragon has gone lowline in this remarkable piece 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted Saturday at 03:51 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 03:51 PM I would love to know how to tell the difference between Handaka Sonja and Chinnan Sennin. I looked around, but I don't think any of the sites I visited really know what they are talking about, and I bet there are a lot of images on both English-speaking and Japanese-speaking sites which are confidently mislabeling these figures. I'm certain they are different figures: Chinnan is a taoist sage, and Handaka Sonja is a buddhist arhat/ascetic. That both are depicted as conjuring a dragon out of a bowl is an extraordinary coincidence, and is certainly the reason why some items appear to be mislabeled. Chinnan Sennin apparently ended a drought by conjuring a rain dragon, so I think he is often depicted with rain. The main narrative is that he conjured a rain dragon by throwing his staff into the clouds, or an iron staff with a whip attached to it. I don't know how he came to be identified with an alms bowl. Handaka Sonja seems to be slightly more popular in iconography, and is most often using an bowl to conjure a dragon. He is either naked from the waist up, or has his robe slipping around his upper body. His head is either bald (like a Buddhist monk) or is wild and ungroomed. All the ones in Dale's post above would appear to be Handaka Sonja. I reckon the figure in the very first tsuba in this thread might be Chinnan Sennin. Maybe one of our Chinese-speaking/reading members can give some more insight. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted Saturday at 04:07 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 04:07 PM ……and the confusion deepens🙂 I’m pretty certain that the artists who actually made these tsuba often were not sure exactly who they were depicting. I doubt they were expert in Chinese/Japanese/ Buddhist/Taoist etc iconography. Very often the designs were taken from early texts…..scrolls, prints etc so I figure there was considerable artistic licence and interpretation involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted Saturday at 04:14 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 04:14 PM 18 minutes ago, SteveM said: I reckon the figure in the very first tsuba in this thread might be Chinnan Sennin. Yes but….you can see the dragons vapour trail emanating upwards from where a bowl would be held (had it not been hidden under the seppadai). No sign of a hurled staff/whip etc🙂🙂 Good fun these debates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeLuucas Posted Saturday at 05:19 PM Author Report Share Posted Saturday at 05:19 PM Just chiming in again to say, I love the direction this thread has gone, and I’m enjoying seeing these incredible tsuba with similar depictions. Cheers! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted Saturday at 05:52 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 05:52 PM 1 hour ago, SteveM said: That both are depicted as conjuring a dragon out of a bowl is an extraordinary coincidence, What I meant by this is that you can find both figures being depicted with a bowl (independent of this thread). So the presence (or lack of) a bowl wouldn't be a giveaway. The figure below is identified as Chinnan Sennin. https://www.syo-kaza...hinnan/chinnan1.html But as above, I am not sure of the defining criteria. The site above could be mistaken. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted Saturday at 06:11 PM Report Share Posted Saturday at 06:11 PM 17 minutes ago, SteveM said: The site above could be mistaken. As indeed could I. So much is lost in the mists of time - both fascinating and frustrating at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted Sunday at 02:13 AM Report Share Posted Sunday at 02:13 AM Just a wild thought here - could the tsubako be covering BOTH bases? It would double his clientele and if we can't tell the difference, would the tsuba buyer have been able? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted Sunday at 07:04 AM Report Share Posted Sunday at 07:04 AM I can't translate the caption on this tsuba taken from Zabo Tansen by Kenichi Kokubo & Kenzo Ootsubo The dragon is once again 'lowline' and for me at least looks a lot like a very thin lizard! There is another tsuba on page 223 of the same book very similar to the one posted by Colin H. above. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted Sunday at 12:33 PM Report Share Posted Sunday at 12:33 PM 和尚竜児 Just means priest and baby dragon, I think, Dale. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanto54 Posted Monday at 02:35 AM Report Share Posted Monday at 02:35 AM 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted Monday at 11:06 AM Report Share Posted Monday at 11:06 AM On 6/22/2024 at 6:52 PM, SteveM said: What I meant by this is that you can find both figures being depicted with a bowl (independent of this thread). So the presence (or lack of) a bowl wouldn't be a giveaway. The figure below is identified as Chinnan Sennin. https://www.syo-kaza...hinnan/chinnan1.html But as above, I am not sure of the defining criteria. The site above could be mistaken. The link goes into the possibilities, suggesting Chinnan Sennin, but also presents an alternative, thus not trying to be definitive. It does appear that several legends have melded together, as you often find with Netsuké. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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