Oil?

[Daniel]

Hi all! I understand that many of you recommends sewing machine oil.Is there a special brand or is it safe for my sword if I just pay my local sewing machine dealer a visit and buy some oil. Best regards Daniel

[David Flynn]

I use singer oil or Castrol general purpose oil. Supermarkets, usually sell one.

[Bruno]

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Japanese-Sword-Tsuba ... 439b938d38

[Stephen]

35$??

 

bit high if you ask me.

 

From Freds site.

 

http://www.Japanese-swords.com/pages/prices.htm

 

get the large it should last you a LOOOONG time.

 

 

 

edit to add....thats the same bottle as Bruno linked on ebay.

[Bruno]

Same bottle at 18$ Nice cost killer Stephen!

[Kevin]

Or else I do a litre of it for £35.83, shipping included, which works out even cheaper than the 100cc bottle. :-)

 

Kevin

[Lee Bray]

Rather off topic but amusing - I recently finished restoring a friend's sgian dubh which his Grandfather left to him.

He'd heard that he should keep the blade oiled so he used....

 

 

.... margarine!

 

Word to the wise. Don't use margarine on your nihonto.

[sanjuro]

Hi all.

 

For what its worth, your local bonsai gardening shop sells camelia oil which contains just the right amount of clove oil, for the maintenance of bonsai tools. It is identical to the oil you buy labelled sword oil and works just great. This stuff sometimes also comes up on ebay for a fraction of anything that is directly associated with sword maintenance. It comes in a plastic bottle and the last lot I bought about six months ago was $11 US for 200ml.

 

I guess a lot of you already know about this dont you?

[saipan59]

I don't use much oil (live in a dry climate), but I recommend a GOOD quality gun oil - I figure the requirements are the same: must not promote corrosion, must not get gummy, must not discolor carbon steel, stainless steel, nickel, or chrome.

 

Years ago, I remember that someone did a chemical analysis of the commercial Japanese sword oil, and he found that it was essentially automatic transmission fluid (with clove scent added).

 

Pete

[Stephen]

I tried the bottle of the ebay stuff your talking about Keith, its not as light of oil than the kind you get ment for Nihonto....ok for tool shed tools ....but not Nihonto, just too thick, could gum up a saya real fast. As far as the AT fluid story i dont put much stock into it. Theres a reason the oil sold in Japan (from where Fred gets his in bulk) is for Nihonto. No short cuts friends.

[Brian]

True Stephen.

Pete...I have been in the gun industry for 20 years, and believe me that not all gun oils are good. I have seen some popular ones that go solid, leave stains, and generally don't perform well. Even one that decomposes and starts to smell like rotten whale after a few years :D

Too many additives, and unknown ingredients. I would skip the gun oil, and just go with the other recommended methods here.

 

Oh, and as for margarine, in this business I have seen multiple times where ppl are told to oil their firearm, and not knowing any better, they have used cooking (sunflower) oil.

You should see how hard that gums up :lol:

 

Brian

[saipan59]

Pete...I have been in the gun industry for 20 years, and believe me that not all gun oils are good.

Exactly, same for me. That's why I specifically said "GOOD" gun oil. CLP is one option. I use "CLP Break-Free" on my guns. On polished blades, I haven't used anything in years. On a blade that is rusty, etc., I use the CLP.

 

So, does anyone know with certainty what type of oil is the "sword oil" made from? We call it "clove oil", but it is almost certainly not pure clove oil. It almost certainly IS a modern type of oil with clove added. So which type? The maker is not going to admit that it's something ordinary. If it was NOT ordinary, they would be bragging about it.

 

Pete

[Binnawan]

Is there a reason why straight clove oil should not be used? Available in most 1st Aid kits or local pharmacy.

Baz

[saipan59]

Is there a reason why straight clove oil should not be used? Available in most 1st Aid kits or local pharmacy.

Baz

Because it's not clear what is in it compared to the "sword oil". It *might* be OK, but I wouldn't try it.

 

The "sword oil" clearly works OK, but we just don't know what is really in it (or how much).

 

Pete

[Stephen]

Its not to be used, it will and i have seen turn steel purple. Why PPL cant just accept what being sold for swords is beyond me. would one take short cuts with different powders for uchiko?

[saipan59]

Why PPL cant just accept what being sold for swords is beyond me.

You're right, Stephen - trying to find a cheap alternative to something that is known to be good is not worth the risk.

 

It just irks me that the makers/sellers won't explain exactly what it is, and most of the collector world will take it at face value (I suppose because it's the "traditional" thing).

 

There's definitely value in having the conversation, so that folks (for example) don't assume that drug-store clove oil is the same thing. The damage that can be done by a 'bad oil' also relates to why a blade should not be touched with bare fingers, why the saya must be a correct fit, why the humidity must be managed, etc.

 

Pete

[sanjuro]

According to the All Japan Swordsmiths Association and endorsed by Sadatoshi Gassan,

 

Token-abura (sword oil) comes in two varieties. One a yellowish oil that is a mixture of clove oil and camellia oil which is used as a cleaner. (Not to be left on the blade for extended periods of time it would appear). The second variety which is a clear oil, is clove oil and a mineral oil. Long lasting and non detergent for extended storage of blades. The exact type of mineral oil used is not mentioned in the reference I have taken this from. The amount of clove oil in these two types is very small, mostly to give it the right smell and to render the ph as close to neutral as possible. (clove oil is mildly acid) The camellia oil variety has a stronger clove smell than the mineral oil variety. :D

[saipan59]

Interesting - thanks Keith!

 

I guess it's safe to say that drug-store mineral oil is not a good choice, either...

 

Pete

[reinhard]

trying to find a cheap alternative to something that is known to be good is not worth the risk.

 

Nano-coating is an alternative. It is not too cheap and most important, it is none of this traditional stuff, which is difficult to get and contains God knows what. You won't see any details anymore, but it will last a lifetime.

 

reinhard

[sanjuro]

Since last posting I have delved a little more deeply into this oil question. I only own koto blades and oil is quite important if preservation is to be taken seriously.

 

Firstly 'clove oil' as used on swords is not the same as 'oil of cloves' sold in drug stores and pharmacies as a mild analgaesic for toothache. One is simply the oil of the clove itself and the other is a mixture of clove oil and an analgaesic. it is also diluted with other thin vegetable oils to make it palatable.

 

Its just possible that the darker nature of koto steel is partly due to having been cleaned and stored with clove oil by its original owner. Clove oil in its pure form was used to clean blades until the end of the Muromachi period, I have no scientific proof of this effect, so its a theory and nothing more. Since koto steel is by nature a little darker and hence 'softer' looking than shinto steel its a little difficult to verify.

As has already been stated, clove oil tends to turn the steel a darker purplish colour over a period of time. This is due to the fact that it oxidises and becomes gummy and increasingly acidic. The addition of mineral or camellia oil slows down the oxidisation process and provides a modified surface tension to the clove oil which is very watery in its natural form and tends to 'bead' on polished steel.

 

I justthought you guys might like to know this. OK.... I'll shut up now

[John A Stuart]

I am not sure where you got your info from, but, clove oil from the chemist/ pharmacy is 100% pure and contains no analgesic. It is an analgesic in and of itself, as well as being an antifungal, antibacterial and antispasmodic. It is obtained from steam distillation of cloves. A long time ago I experimented with it and mineral oils, trying to make my own mix. They weren't miscible. During the course of this I applied pure clove oil on various types of carbon steel. After a few months it does oxidise to a purple colour, however, it does not stain the metal itself. My only advice is do not be disingenuous and try oils not recommended by legitimate sources. Too, I just want to emphasise the darker steels seen in some koto era swords does not arise from the oils used. They are the result of the steel used. John

[sanjuro]

Thanks John.

 

oops: No intention to mislead there, So I'm glad you put the record straight.The sample I took the info from actually stated what I said on the bottle label. I assumed (dangerously) that this was common to all proprietry Oil of cloves types sold by pharmacies. It highlights however that there are different varieties out there and that makes them dangerous to use on swords. I have a bottle of pure clove oil and it definately looks different to the proprietry one I was quoting from. Its also thinner and less oily to the touch.

 

The thought about the darkening factor was only that and it simply occured to me as a possibility. I'll try and avoid having these little inspirations in future.

[John A Stuart]

Not to worry. John

[sanjuro]

John.

 

What is the actual process for extracting oil from cloves? your post indicates it is a steamed extraction but wouldn't that make it aqueous?

 

Secondly, and I guess this is an effort to vindicate an earlier post, I have re- read that label.

I quote. "Contains a natural analgesic and vegetable oils". I have interpreted that as the oil having additives which may also be the case, but equally in another light it could be the simple statement of the properties of the oil itself. I cant understand why it is a different consitency to the genuine oil I compared it to however. No matter, I'm still embarrassed about it..... Oh well!

[IanB]

Keith, Steam distillation is a commonly used process for extracting oils from plants that could not be distilled alone because those oils would decompose at the temperatures needed. All you do is boil the plant material in water and collect the condensate. The oil is carried over in the steam and because it is immiscible with water, forms a layer on top. The water is then run off, leaving the oil.

Ian

[sanjuro]

Thanks Ian.