Non suguha koa isshin mantetsu blade

[Gerry]

Thought I'd share this oddball koa isshin mantetsu blade that I acquired years ago, that has a nioi based gunome hamon. Has anyone seen another non-suguha koa isshin blade?

 

[Gerry]

[Gerry]

 

It was also ubu-ba.

[Gerry]

[lonely panet]

Alarm bells

[David Flynn]

Looks like a Seki Showa to.   The Mei, looks freshly added.   But hey, one can only go on the photo's.

[John C]

4 hours ago, Gerry said:

oddball koa isshin mantetsu

Gerry:

Does it have the katakana letter and number on the nakago mune?

 

John C.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

@Gerry

 

Ditto with John - can we get the serial number on the back edge of the nakago?

 

May I ask who you bought this from?

[Gerry]

 

Ah, good point. Oddly enough, it doesn't have any serial number on the nakago. The person whom I purchased it from says he suspected it was a sword made for the mantetsu exhibition, hence it's in a nice horn fitted shirasaya.

 

And this shot shows that the hada is quite evident, so the blade does seem forged, and not mill produced showato. If it's a gimei, it's the first I've heard of a mantetsu gimei, ha ha.

[Gerry]

I recall buying it from a gun store in Houston.

[Bruce Pennington]

So, a few things

 

We do have 2 '41 blades with real hamon - Ka 228 and Ka 232

228                                                                             232

     

 

They came out of Japan on a Buyee sale.  It is possible that they are fakes, but much of the other signs seem legit, like the "Ka" being right for the year.  

 

But back to yours.  We do have blades without serial numbers, but they are signed blades by Shigetsugu.  We also have a waki with no serial number, that I think is legit.  So, it's possible all these, including yours, are legit.  But we don't know.

 

One thing supporting yours is the curved nakago mune.  I don't follow civil swords enough to know, but I don't think they had curved mune, and I don't think even the WWII blades from the mainland had curved mune.  If I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know.

 

On the other hand, I agree that the mei looks fresh.  In this photo, you can see how clean the mei cuts are compared to the aged surface around it:

 

But you have it in hand and can tell if that is a trick of the lighting and that there really is signs of age in the cuts.

 

I'm going to file it, like the other ones, as I don't have enough info to say for sure either way.  It's possible you have something quite cool.

[lonely panet]

ITS A FAKE BRUCE,  STOP DREAMING ABOUT

[Bruno]

Mei looks well made and typical of Mantetsu-to style mei.

 

Habaki is typical of the Mantetsu-to style too.

 

Shirasaya seems of quality and blade has been re-polished post war.

 

I would have been quite a lot of effort to customize a random showa-to just in order to make a fake Koa Isshin-to.

 

To me, it might be legit despite the lack of number on the mune and unusual hamon.

[John C]

Another consideration would be why would someone take a nice sword and "turn" it into a mantetsu? I'm not sure it would raise the value. But personally, I don't think there is enough to say conclusively one way or the other at this point, though I would lean toward not being a true mantetsu. 

 

IMHO

John C.

[Brendan campbell]

I think , I agree withJohn C. Also having looked at it again the whole tang is not finished to a high enough standard for an exhibition. 

[lonely panet]

lets apply Occam's razor to this sword .  

 

1-hamon,  clearly oil quenched,  clealy in the mino seki style know to be mass produced during era.

2-kissaki dosnt match koa isshin mantetsu  "a robust ko kissaki" the above has more of a chu.

3- very fresh mei that dosnt even match the patina of the clearly cleaned nakago

4-nakago shape tapers to much 

5- the poorly finished yasurime,  koa isshin had etremely well finished nakago and yasurime.

 

so go with whats the simpler explanation or most obvious. 

IE a mumei seki/showato tarted up at look like a more commercial sale to the uneducated white man, compared to a mumei seki-to that wouldnt evan sell on fleabay.

 

stick that in your fife and smoke it

[Bruce Pennington]

John, 

Hamish's point "a mumei seki/showato tarted up at look like a more commercial sale to the uneducated white man, compared to a mumei seki-to that wouldnt evan sell on fleabay." would explain it.  Plus, it could depend upon when this was done (assuming gimei).  Before COVID, Mantetsu blades were selling over $3,000, where a mumei showato half that, and even a mumei nihonto in the $2,000 range.  Post COVID, I agree with you, the prices are about the same, so why bother.

 

I'm still waiting to hear if any nihonto were made with rounded mune.  It seems unlikely that a faker would go to that great a detail, to take a mumei blade and round the mune.  If they knew that much about Mantetsu blades, they would have known about the serial numbers too.

[Gerry]

7 hours ago, Bruno said:

Mei looks well made and typical of Mantetsu-to style mei.

 

Habaki is typical of the Mantetsu-to style too.

 

Shirasaya seems of quality and blade has been re-polished post war.

 

I would have been quite a lot of effort to customize a random showa-to just in order to make a fake Koa Isshin-to.

 

To me, it might be legit despite the lack of number on the mune and unusual hamon.

Actually, the blade is ubu-ba. And I'm really please to see a healthy discussion about opinions on this blade.

[PNSSHOGUN]

There was a shop in Japan making rather elaborate fakes in this vein. They would take original, sometimes newly made swords, adding spurious inscriptions to generals/admirals/famous Gendai smiths etc and the like to inflate the price. Keeping in mind that Koa Isshin go for a large premium in Japan, and special Koa Isshin will always be popular with collectors everywhere.

 

This does remind me of those, in that it's a clearly original WWII made sword with a well done Mei, but the normal stamps are omitted. The fact it has the Mantetsu Habaki, overall Sugata, and well done Mei and Yasurime do give one pause though. It would be different if it had come back from a Vet and sat in a closet until today, far too many questions now.

[Bruno]

This same sword was posted en 2021 by a different owner.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/34680-translation-signature-on-mantetsu-blade/#comment-510855

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Bruno said:

a different owner.

It was on ebay, and Foo Dog was posting for translation and considering a buy.

[Gerry]

On 6/24/2024 at 7:46 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

It was on ebay, and Foo Dog was posting for translation and considering a buy.

Yep, I had listed it on eBay back in 2021.

[Kiipu]

26 minutes ago, Gerry said:

I had listed it on eBay back in 2021.

 

Exactly how long have you owned the sword?

[Gerry]

23 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Exactly how long have you owned the sword?

Ah, I think I originally purchased the sword back in 2015 or 2016.

[Kiipu]

Gerry, are these your pictures as well?

Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[Gerry]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Gerry, are these your pictures as well?

Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

No, I think those photos were taken by the new owner.