New sword: Gimei?

[tagonagy]

I got a new sword that is signed "Ryu oji Minamoto Sadatsugu" I know that Takahashi Sadatsugu signed his swords this way. My question is whether the signature is authentic or Gimei. If it is Gimei, I plan on mounting this sword and using it for Iai. However, I don't want to risk it if this sword was really made by Sadatsugu. Any opinions?

[ottou812]

1st Living Natonal Treasure sword. I saw one on Ebay a while back and I believe it sold for $5000usd.

[David Flynn]

I checked the signature against the one in John Sloughs book. Your one does appear to be gimei to me. However, I would compare more signatures first before I dismissed this sword.

 

P.S.

A gimei Sadatsugu was submitted at the Sydney Shinsa.

[ottou812]

I wouldn't call it a gimei right away. John Slough's book has a mei from 1938. This particular one is Showa 35 which in 1960. John Slough's book doesn't have enough oshigatas for Sadatsugu.

[Mark Green]

Great looking sword.

I would do some serious checking on this one, with people in the know!

jmo,, Mark G

[drbvac]

I would certainly be in no rush to mount it for Iai either - even if gimei its a nice blade

[Bruno]

Hi all,

 

By reading this topic a question came to me:

 

If a sword is 100% sure gimei(I am not talking about the one in this topic) and as the same time it is a good quality one, is it sensible to ask a togishi to erased the fake signature and make yasurine(file marks) on the nakago?Or just erased the fake mei maybe?

 

I know that a nakago must not be tuched, but in a gimei case I was wondering if that could be appropriate.Furthermore, if every gimei sword's owners would do that, it would solve the gimei problem definitely!

 

I'll be glad to have your wise opinions about that.

[Guido]

Before others chime in with "it's part of the sword's history and should remain": having a Gimei removed is the only sensible thing to do IM not so HO. If one of the punks in the neighborhood scratches his initials into the lacquer of my car I have a paint job, and don't leave it as "part of my car's history".

 

A good polisher or smith can do that in a way that makes it virtually undetectable (Yoshihara Yoshindo is *very* good at it, but not exactly cheap, and it takes quite a long time). I once had a Gimei removed from a Tantô, and even Mr. Tanobe was "fooled" and wrote "Ubu Mumei" in the Sayagaki ...

[Bruno]

Before others chime in with "it's part of the sword's history and should remain": having a Gimei removed is the only sensible thing to do IM not so HO. If one of the punks in the neighborhood scratches his initials into the lacquer of my car I have a paint job, and don't leave it as "part of my car's history".

 

I 100% agree with you Guido

[Marius]

 

A good polisher or smith can do that in a way that makes it virtually undetectable

 

I aways wonder how they re-patinate the nakago. I can imagine this should be "easy" on relatively new nakago (shinshinto or gendai), but what if you have a Kamakura sword with a false mei?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

but what if you have a Kamakura sword with a false mei?

 

The deleted Mei on Guido's Tanto was "Rai Kunimitsu" (he commented "close but not enough" :lol: ).

Having seen it I can only confirm. As unbelivable as it can be, it is possible, even on very old Nakago.

[Bruno]

Yoshihara Yoshindo is *very* good at it, but not exactly cheap, and it takes quite a long time

 

I would understand that gimei sword's owner'd rather sell their sword due to the high cost for making a new virgin nakago!

[drbvac]

Before others chime in with "it's part of the sword's history and should remain": having a Gimei removed is the only sensible thing to do IM not so HO. If one of the punks in the neighborhood scratches his initials into the lacquer of my car I have a paint job, and don't leave it as "part of my car's history".

 

Painting your car to get rid of a name that had nothing to do with the car is not quite the same as removing a false name from a blade - I can see what you mean, but at least the person who wrote the false name forged the blade. Maybe many years ago a young smith wanted to show he could copy a great style and years ago it may not have been so much a financial consideration as now?

 

If I have a gimei removed, if the blade is decent, would you then send to shinsa to determine the "real" maker? How would you decide, I have a naginata that is probably gimei but from a cost benefit analysis if I note that it is gimei why bother removing it?

[Bruno]

Maybe many years ago a young smith wanted to show he could copy a great style and years ago it may not have been so much a financial consideration as now?

 

Maybe not a so much financial consideration as now but a financial purpose anyway. The sword can be a great copy but still a copy, and even in those past times swords were sold, and sold more expensive if greatly signed.The will to sign the nakago with someone else famous name has purely for goal to lead somebody astray, it is just a greedy goal.Furthermore, a lot of false signatures were added on th enakago sometime 100 or 200 years after the sword has been forged, in that case if it not a greedy purpose I do not know what else it is?

 

To conclude, as far I am concerned, a removed gimei sword is more respectable than a non-removed gimei one, even if a true mei one(or mumei) is the best of the tree!

 

I do beg your pardon for my so poor english.

[drbvac]

Agreed as far as respectable and as is not to confuse the buyers or people looking, but considering the cost to remove the gimei is it worth the trouble and would you then have it sent to shinsa. I knew there was a reason I really love the mumei stuff!! :lol:

[Bruno]

I knew there was a reason I really love the mumei stuff!! :lol:

 

100% agree with you!

 

I never buy signed blades except with showato, with showato you can be pretty sure they are never gimei! :D

[David Flynn]

Showato as in Arsenal stamped blades?

[Bazza]

I knew there was a reason I really love the mumei stuff!! :lol:

 

100% agree with you!

 

I never buy signed blades except with showato, with showato you can be pretty sure they are never gimei! :D

Dear Bruno,

I resist buying into this at length, but I do want to say in short that with this view you are missing out on the greatest challenge of all - finding a quality blade that is genuine and a great work, be it signed or not. My 45 years in collecting have been marked with some lovely finds and also some real dogs in both signed and unsigned blades. The exercise is really to find quality by winnowing the wheat from the chaff in the stream of swords (aka tarts...) that pass by. It is here that an essay of finds could start...

Best regards,

Barry Thomas.

[Bruno]

Dear Bruno,

I resist buying into this at length, but I do want to say in short that with this view you are missing out on the greatest challenge of all - finding a quality blade that is genuine and a great work, be it signed or not. My 45 years in collecting have been marked with some lovely finds and also some real dogs in both signed and unsigned blades. The exercise is really to find quality by winnowing the wheat from the chaff in the stream of swords (aka tarts...) that pass by. It is here that an essay of finds could start...

Best regards,

Barry Thomas.

 

I agree with you Thomas, I agree with everyone, I am an easy going man! :D You are right in a way. I said that because my present knowledge does not allow me to buy old signed blade as I do not want to spend high amounts in blades that I can not identify. I guess after "45 years in collecting" I will change my point of view.

 

Showato as in Arsenal stamped blades?

 

Showato as in Arsenal stamped blades?

 

Yes David, some showato are very well done and nothing to see with stock bar blades.With them you can be pretty sure they are not gimei as the seki smiths are quite modern ones.There prices are reasonable.

 

As a conclusion, I am focusing on blades that have no fatal cracks(not twisted, no kizu, not retempered...), not tired(fair munemachi) and on modern signed blades to avoid gimei problems.

 

But I guess we have been far from the very first question asked by the first post, haven't we?

 

Regards

[drbvac]

I'd say we hijacked it pretty well, but to be honest, when I said i like mumei, or don't worry about gimei, I usually find that I look at the blade, buy it if I like it, and then worry about the signature. :lol:

[tagonagy]

I've looked through the web and my own books and found a mei of Sadatsugu's that I'm sure is authentic (the sword is from the Compton Collection).

 

here is the mei of my sword.

 

and the date.

 

Any opinions? Authentic? Gimei?

[drbvac]

I put these together in order to make it easier to compare - Don't know - looks pretty good to me!

[John A Stuart]

Hi Brian, I see some differences even in the kakihan. I see some similarities too. I can't write my signature the same every time. So, not being well versed in this smith or even a calligrapher, it is impossible to tell. Even books devoted to one smith like say Okisato Nagasone make it hard to tell even with all the tell-tales. We had that very discussion not long ago. Do you think it is close enough? John

[drbvac]

Hi back John : Well agree with what you said, the experts should help, but at least the strokes seem in the right direction and within both mei seem to be the same weight etc, but - I can't tell well enough to be sure - that said I still wouldnt use it for practice! :?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Please, have an attentive look at the quality of the yasurime and at the tagane makura.

[drbvac]

OK, I'll try to learn something - the yasurime are not as even or deep and at a slightly steeper angle on the blade in question, as to the tagane makura, I can;t tell whether considering the pictures and the angulation there is a big difference but would really like to read what you think?

[Ted Tenold]

As a point of consideration for folks when looking at any Gassan school sword;

 

Gassan smiths are absolutely fastidious about their yasurimei and signature. It is not a matter of personal embellishment for them. As Jacques is elluding, one should really REALLY scrutinize everything to a fine degree with regard to these elements.

 

Just a comment to help digest the images.

[drbvac]

Well then - as with the term "good enough" it probably isn't - or Close enough isn't (close at all )!

 

Am I to understand with this school specifically it has to be very very close to identical to be acceptable, at least closer than many others, or in some cases individual smiths?

 

I know I rarely sign the same way or even print the same but I guess considering the technique for cutting the mei there would be more attention to the details.

 

Always interesting and educational - thanks

[Ted Tenold]

Dr. B.,

 

As occidentals we'd like to think that variations in signatures on swords should naturally carry variation, but signing a sword isn't like signing the monthly rent check. Inscribing a sword is the final touch on a very personal work. The sword is not *complete* without a properly finished nakago. Students are taught not only how to make swords, but in many schools they are taught specifically how to sign them and what with. Look at an Enomoto signature and you can see the striking influence of their Gassan education. Gassan Sadakatsu signed for his father for *decades* with only one known example of his own signature prior to 1918 that I know of, which I saw earlier this year and was a shoshin Meiji dated piece.

 

Takahashi Sadatsugu was a student under Gassan Sadakazu *and* Gassan Sadakatsu. So how much variation should be reasonable? Very very little. When it comes to the Kao or monogram, even less so.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Inscribing a sword is the final touch on a very personal work. The sword is not *complete* without a properly finished nakago. Students are taught not only how to make swords, but in many schools they are taught specifically how to sign them and what with.

 

Hello Ted, All,

 

Please help me out here as the names ?? escape me at the moment, however, there is a famous story of a well known sword smith catching his neighbor, also a well known sword smith, forging his mei by simply recognizing the chiseling sound coming through an open window. That's how precise some these mei are repeatedly cut.