Looking to buy my second nihonto katana

[VRGC]

Hey NMB members,

 

I have been looking for a Muromachi period katana in the mid-level and above quality. I have found something in my budget from Aio-Art.

 

Before I make the purchase, I wanted to check in with you guys.

 

My only concern would be the Mei, one character is basically not visible (I guess rust overtime) but with all the documentation, I doubt it has any reason to be a fake/misleading Mei:

- NBTHK Hozon Paper
- NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho Paper
- Aoi-Art estimation Paper
- whole oshigata

Would this be an issue for reselling it? 

I couldnt find much on the smith but i have found very similar from the same lineage 信吉 Nobuyoshi. 

 

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/NOB590 

Could it be this smith?

Here’s the seller description: 

 

Katana in Shirasaya

Inscription: Heianjo Ju Fujiwara Nobuyoshi 平安城住藤原信吉

(We divide 4 sections for each sword as Saijyo saku, Jyojyo saku Jyo saku and regular saku)
This sword belongs to Jyo Jyo saku ranking.

Habaki: gold-foiled double habaki
Length: 76.2 cm (30.0 in)
Sori: 0.8 cm (0.83 in)
Mekugi hole: 1
Width at base: 3.2 cm (1.3 in)
Width at tip: 2.1 cm (0.8 in)
Thickness: 0.8 cm (0.3 in)
Weight: 860 g
Era: the late Muromachi period, around Tenbun era, the 16th century. 

Shape: wide and thick blade with small sori.
Jigane: well-fordged ko-itame hada
Hamon: Niedeki gunome midare with ashi and deep nioikuchi.
There are a lot of Sunagashi and Kinsuji in the hamon. 

Features:
Heianjo Ju Fujiwara Nobuyoshi, the son of Nagayoshi was active in Kyoto in the late Muromachi period. The hamon is bright and beautiful. 

NBTHK Hozon Paper
NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho Paper
Aoi-Art estimation Paper
whole oshigata 

Prices:400,000 JPY-.

 

 

 

 

[Franco]

4 hours ago, VRGC said:

NBTHK Hozon Paper

 

A signed Muromachi period sword should be Tokubetsu Hozon. It would be wise to understand all of the reasons why this sword is only Hozon.

 

4 hours ago, VRGC said:

This sword belongs to Jyo Jyo saku ranking.

 

4 hours ago, VRGC said:

I couldnt find much on the smith

 

Jyo Jyo saku and you couldn't find much on this smith, hmm.

While I haven't researched the reasons why, something doesn't add up.

 

 

Collect what you like, but know what you're collecting. This requires hours of study backed by a solid library. 

 

Regards

[Mark S.]

Of course this is my personal opinion… but I don’t always discount old papers.  I think it was submitted for Hozon just to re-confirm the mei and it probably wasn’t worth the added expense to reconfirm the Tokubetsu rank.  I just don’t believe EVERY old paper is ‘wortheless’ or that ALL the old Shinsa panels had no idea what they were doing or were corrupt.  But, each to their own.

 

I guess it comes down to:

1) Do you like the blade?

2) Are you OK if it is ‘only’ a Hozon level blade?

[Rivkin]

Without checking the books: Nagayoshi and Nobuyoshi are sometimes good blades. They are at transition from koto to shinto - hamon usually not exactly gokaden/koto, and later Nobuyoshi will be shinto with denser hada.

Still looks like a nice blade, though an auction link to AOI would be more appropriate.

 

P.S. The smith is not jo-jo-saku, its AOI way of saying its a good, attractive blade. I don't remember Nobuyoshi's rating it was either chu-jo or jo saku.

[Franco]

5 hours ago, Rivkin said:

I don't remember Nobuyoshi's rating it was either chu-jo or jo saku.

 

I could be mistaken but am not seeing that he is a rated smith.

 

Old, new, Hozon paper is fine. Just understand why. The reason could be as simple as being a mei verification and nothing more. But, then again.

 

Regards

[VRGC]

6 hours ago, Rivkin said:

P.S. The smith is not jo-jo-saku, its AOI way of saying its a good, attractive blade. I don't remember Nobuyoshi's rating it was either chu-jo or jo saku.

Nobuyoshi (信吉) would be categorized as “中上作” (Chūjō-saku), “middle-upper grade” of craftsmanship.

 

I believe he has a rating of 15 in the Hawley reference.

[VRGC]

11 hours ago, Franco D said:

Jyo Jyo saku and you couldn't find much on this smith, hmm.

While I haven't researched the reasons why, something doesn't add up.

 

This is most likely the smith:

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/NOB590

 "平安城住信吉" (Heianjō-jū Nobuyoshi) and "平安城住藤原信吉" (Heianjō-jū Fujiwara Nobuyoshi) refer to the same swordsmith. The addition of "藤原" (Fujiwara) indicates that Nobuyoshi belonged to the Fujiwara clan. Thus, the full name "平安城住藤原信吉" simply provides more detail about his family background.

 

Nobuyoshi (信吉) would be categorized as “中上作” (Chūjō-saku), “middle-upper grade” of craftsmanship.  I believe he has a rating of 15 in the Hawley reference
 

Also I didn’t add it above but you can see that there is (what seems to me) a mei comparison happening here on the NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho Paper. There are two nakago being compared. It seems like it’s a reference to determine the Mei (I could be wrong) but the nakago they look slightly different in overall length (although have a similar build). I guess they are looking for similarities with regards to the mei signature for this smith, See picture 

[VRGC]

10 hours ago, Mark S. said:

I guess it comes down to:

1) Do you like the blade?

2) Are you OK if it is ‘only’ a Hozon level blade?

1) definitely 

2) yes, but it’s is something I will question the retail shop with (based on there answer I can make a decision). Plus some research on my side 

[Franco]

6 hours ago, VRGC said:

Nobuyoshi (信吉) would be categorized as “中上作” (Chūjō-saku), “middle-upper grade” of craftsmanship.  I believe he has a rating of 15 in the Hawley reference

 

I no longer have Fujishiro or Hawley's. However, checking two other references, Sesko and Sho-shin, that rating is not mentioned/listed. The point here is to know/research the answer to all of the questions concerning the quality and facts of a blade before buying a sword. Does the sword fulfill all of your collecting objectives? Objectives must be measurable and repeatable. 

 

Regards

 

[SteveM]

Also, there is a Heianjo Nobuyoshi who worked in the mid 1600s.See the below for reference.

https://toyuukai.jp/products/平安城住藤原信吉-2尺8寸1分-特別保存刀剣鑑定書-品番-ｋａ０１５

 

I'd be curious as to why Aoi feels the sword in this thread is Muromachi. I haven't dug deep into Nobuyoshi...maybe there are obvious signs that I am missing. The shape of the sword in this thread feels like a mid 1600s sword. 

 

[Franco]

38 minutes ago, SteveM said:

Also, there is a Heianjo Nobuyoshi who worked in the mid 1600s.

 

The NBTHK uses "Fujiwara" in its origami as an indication of a Shinto period sword. 

 

Quote

NOBUYOSHI (信吉), 1 st gen., Shōhō (正保, 1644-1648), Yamashiro – “Shinano no Kami Minamoto Nobuyoshi” (信濃守源信吉), “Shinano no Kami Fujiwara Nobuyoshi” (信濃守藤原信吉) ... chujo-saku

Sesko

 

Quote

NOBUYOSHI (信吉), 2 nd gen., Enpō (延宝, 1673-1681), Yamashiro – “Shinano no Kami Fujiwara Nobuyoshi” (信濃守藤原信吉), “Rakuyō Shinano no Kami Minamoto Nobuyoshi” (洛陽信濃守源信吉), .... chujo-saku

Sesko

 

https://sword-auctio...i-nbthk-hozon-token/

 

 

Quote

NOBUYOSHI (信吉), Tenbun (天文, 1532-1555), Yamashiro – “Heianjō Nobuyoshi” (平安城信吉), grandson of Heianjō Nagayoshi (長吉)

Sesko

[Rivkin]

My bad! This is obviously a shinto sword, as indicated by posters above. Should have checked the books. I did remember the smiths, but have forgotten that Nagayoshi was Muromachi and Nobuyoshi - shinto, just remembered that Nobuyoshi was shinto looking.

[VRGC]

17 hours ago, SteveM said:

I'd be curious as to why Aoi feels the sword in this thread is Muromachi. I haven't dug deep into Nobuyoshi...maybe there are obvious signs that I am missing. The shape of the sword in this thread feels like a mid 1600s sword. 

 

Not sure if you saw the full blade, as I didn’t post it the thread above. If so, here it is: 

[mywei]

Looks like Kanbun shinto

[Robert S]

Take a look at this link, which is sometimes useful for sorting out ratings, dates, etc. : https://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths
 

[VRGC]

On 6/15/2024 at 4:41 PM, SteveM said:

Also, there is a Heianjo Nobuyoshi who worked in the mid 1600s.See the below for reference.

https://toyuukai.jp/products/平安城住藤原信吉-2尺8寸1分-特別保存刀剣鑑定書-品番-ｋａ０１５

 

I'd be curious as to why Aoi feels the sword in this thread is Muromachi. I haven't dug deep into Nobuyoshi...maybe there are obvious signs that I am missing. The shape of the sword in this thread feels like a mid 1600s sword. 

 

Kazushige Tsuruta from Aoi Has spoken (not the most detailed explanation). Based on his expertise it is a Muromachi period sword: 

 

“According to the book on swords, this piece is described as being from the late Muromachi period, and I have come to the same conclusion.”

 

“I believe it is by Yamashiro Nobuyoshi.”

[VRGC]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:16 PM, Rivkin said:

My bad! This is obviously a shinto sword, as indicated by posters above. Should have checked the books. I did remember the smiths, but have forgotten that Nagayoshi was Muromachi and Nobuyoshi - shinto, just remembered that Nobuyoshi was shinto looking.

As I learned from another member:

Many smiths added Fujiwara on or off on their mei. Shape is indeed more later looking, but such straight sugata already existed in the Kamakura era. They were just far from common but not unheard of.

[VRGC]

On 6/15/2024 at 4:47 PM, Franco D said:

 

On 6/15/2024 at 4:47 PM, Franco D said:

 

The NBTHK uses "Fujiwara" in its origami as an indication of a Shinto period sword. 

 

 

 

https://sword-auctio...i-nbthk-hozon-token/

 

 

I learnt this from another member: 
Fujiwara was an honorary title bestowed upon various swordsmiths. There were also Koto period smiths with this title. It is not indicative of period.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Agree with Kanbun Shinto, and would not put much thought into the Aoi Art descriptions.

[Franco]

8 hours ago, VRGC said:

Fujiwara was an honorary title bestowed upon various swordsmiths. There were also Koto period smiths with this title. It is not indicative of period.

 

You are entitled to believe what you wish.

 

When the NBTHK papers a mumei sword to let's say a Bungo Fujiwara Takada they are saying that it is a Shinto sword. In the case of a mumei Bungo sword from the Koto period the NBTHK would say Taira Takada.

 

Quote

 Those who forged swords in Takada village before the Edo period were called Taira Takada and Fujiwara Takada during the Edo period.  https://www.samuraim...u-hozon-certificate/

 

Show me otherwise and I'll reconsider.

 

 

Regards

[Franco]

On 6/15/2024 at 10:41 AM, SteveM said:

Also, there is a Heianjo Nobuyoshi who worked in the mid 1600s.See the below for reference.

https://toyuukai.jp/products/平安城住藤原信吉-2尺8寸1分-特別保存刀剣鑑定書-品番-ｋａ０１５

 

(Fujiwara Nobuyoshi)

Shinto period yakidashi .

 

On 6/15/2024 at 10:47 AM, Franco D said:

https://sword-auctio...i-nbthk-hozon-token/

 

More of a Koto period yakidashi .

 

Same sword smith? Long life span? 

Two different smiths?

 

9 hours ago, VRGC said:

Shape is indeed more later looking, but such straight sugata already existed in the Kamakura era. They were just far from common but not unheard of.

 

True. 

 

Regards