Bruce Pennington Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 I realize I should do more digging before starting this, but on a broad, brief scan of the files, I've noticed that WWII blades, at least the stamped ones, began using tachi mei (smith's name toward the wearer). This is true for both Showa and large Seki stamped blades. But as we move to the Gifu stamped blades (still need to research NA stamped blades), the mei goes to the katana side (or side away from the wearer). I did a very quick look at the star-stamped blades and saw a mix, but I haven't done a serious look at them yet. Anyone have knowledge of this already? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 If it helps, my three gendaito are all signed katana mei and all date from 1944. John C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTM72 Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 13 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said: I realize I should do more digging before starting this, but on a broad, brief scan of the files, I've noticed that WWII blades, at least the stamped ones, began using tachi mei (smith's name toward the wearer). A point of reference for this statement. Tachi mei is with the signature facing outwards,when worn as a tachi,with edge down. Similarly, katana have the mei facing outwards as well, when worn as a katana, with edge up. Since the type 94's and 98's were styled and worn as tachi, following tradition, they should all have the signature as tachi mei...but, we see signatures on both sides for showato, and gendaito. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 7 Author Report Share Posted June 7 I figured I’d get the terminology wrong! I haven’t had time to get into my files yet, but there was a definite change on which side they signed the blades in the last half of the war. Or so it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted June 8 Report Share Posted June 8 Hi Bruce, I haven't done any research on RJT mei, but this is what I can tell you about the ones I have (or had). These are my RJT blades with star stamps. Tachi Mei Muto Hidehiro of Fukuoka 18/2 (no longer have this sword) Tachi mei Yamagami Munetoshi of Niigata 18/5 (also have another by him done pre-RJT (no star) signed Tachi mei dated 16/9) Katana mei Nagao Kunishiro of Aomori 19/2 Tachi Mei Nakata Kanehide of Seki 19/5 Tachi Mei Takashima Kunihide of Kyoto 19/8 Hope this is pf some use... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 Ok. Finished my tally of mei types - Tachi vs Katana - on stamped blades. It is clear that blades inspected by civilian authority (Showa and large Seki stamps) used Katana mei, with minor deviations; and blades inspected by Army arsenals (small Seki, and Arsenal inspector stamps) used Tachi mei. Blades with the Tan stamp used Katana mei, supporting the proposal that it was a "gendaito" approval stamp of the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Assoc. Unexpectedly, the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal used Katana mei, while Tenshozan forge used just the opposite, Tachi mei. The implication, to me, is that smiths knew which inspector their blades were being made for and engraved their mei accordingly. I tested this theory by looking for smiths that had blades inspected by both civil and army in the same year. I didn't find many, but those I found fit the pattern exactly. 1941 Large Seki w/Katana mei Na stamp w/tachi mei Kanetsugu Kanetsugu 1943 Large Seki w/Katana mei Na stamp w/tachi mei Kanenori Kanenori Kanetaka Kanetaka Nagamitsu Nagamitsu So it does appear the smiths knew who each blade (or batch) was heading for and placed the mei accordingly. The star blades were predominantly Tach mei, but they did have an unusual number of blades with Katana mei. Here's the chart: TACHI OR KATANA MEI SHOWA KATANA MEI TACHI MEI 1935 1 1937 1 1939 4 1940 21 1 1941 21 1942 1 ND 63 1 SEKI Large 1940 4 1941 7 1942 37 1943 19 1944 5 ND 108 1 SEKI small 1943 1 1944 1 Star 18 (8 Star) 1945 10 (2 Star) ND 1 NA 1941 1 1942 8 (1 Star) 1943 46 (2 Star) 1944 15 1945 1 ND 3 GIFU 1944 1 1945 16 ND 1 SAKA 1943 2 1944 5 ND 7 Ko 1935 1 1942 3 (1 Star) 1944 1 (1 Star) ND 2 1 YAMA 1943 4 (1 Star) 1944 1 TAN 1940 1 1941 1 1942 2 ND 13 STAR 1941 1 1942 5 16 1943 19 47 1944 5 61 1945 2 19 ND 6 12 Toyokawa 1939 20 1 Kiyomichi Tenshozan 28 All Dates 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTM72 Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Bruce, Your work amazes me! One day in the distant future, people will look back at this site and see the work you and others have undertaken and be very thankful for the information they have found. You are appreciated! 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 Thanks Dan. It's been fun. And like you point out, there are quite a few of us involved in making it happen. On the topic, I was surprised, actually. I had expected to see the mei switching sides over time, across the board. I suspected it was related to the Army assuming control of all sword production and the switch would have been due to their regulations. But as we found out, it is something else. You can see that the Army inspected blades are all tachi side as far back as 1935, fully overlapping the years of Showa and large Seki stamping on katana-side mei. I was also hoping to see the Gifu stamped blades come out on katana-side blades, because it would support my theory that it was a stamp developed by the Seki Cutlery people to replace their stolen Seki emblem. But we can see they are on tachi-sided mei. So, I don't know what to think about that other than to assume it might have been an area inspector from that location. In 1943, the military stamping went to area specific stamps. The sakura is what made me think it was from the Association, as it matched the style of the Showa stamp. However, with the new data in mind, it may be more in line with the Toyokawa practice of using the sakura and anchor. So, we do know that an arsenal, Toyokawa, used the sakura. Maybe the Army, or a local inspector created this one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiipu Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 五、中心ノ形状、鈩仕及刻ハ特ニ人念ニ行ヒ銘ハ外装ノ一般型式ト一致セシメ佩裏ニ製作年月日(干支ニテモ可ナリ）彫刻スルモノトス WW2 Rikgun Jumei Tosho Documents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 2 hours ago, Kiipu said: 五、中心ノ形状、鈩仕及刻ハ特ニ人念ニ行ヒ銘ハ外装ノ一般型式ト一致セシメ佩裏ニ製作年月日(干支ニテモ可ナリ）彫刻スルモノトス WW2 Rikgun Jumei Tosho Documents ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said: ? I think it applies to this section: 5. Nakagoshape and file work will be of quality and mei cutting will be scrupulously done. The mei will be on the outside in the normal way and on the reverse/opposite side will be the date of manufacture as year, month, day (sexagenary cycle is also permissible). John C 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 5 minutes ago, John C said: The mei will be on the outside in the normal way Oh boy! That is pretty clear! Thanks John. Now we have to wonder why blades inspected by the Association used katana mei. Who knows about the Navy! Maybe they used katana mei just to be diametrically opposed to anything the Army did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 I think it just depends on the smith. If he thinks it reminds him of a Tachi, he signs Tachi Mei. Same for Katana Mei. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 7 hours ago, John C said: I think it applies to this section: 5. Nakagoshape and file work will be of quality and mei cutting will be scrupulously done. The mei will be on the outside in the normal way and on the reverse/opposite side will be the date of manufacture as year, month, day (sexagenary cycle is also permissible). John C 13 hours ago, Kiipu said: 五、中心ノ形状、鈩仕及刻ハ特ニ人念ニ行ヒ銘ハ外装ノ一般型式ト一致セシメ佩裏ニ製作年月日(干支ニテモ可ナリ）彫刻スルモノトス WW2 Rikgun Jumei Tosho Documents I just remembered that this is an RJT regulation. So, I wonder why the most deviations from the reg are on star-stamped RJT blades? All the non-RJT blades comply with the reg almost without fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTM72 Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 On 6/11/2024 at 11:36 AM, Bruce Pennington said: I was also hoping to see the Gifu stamped blades come out on katana-side blades, because it would support my theory that it was a stamp developed by the Seki Cutlery people to replace their stolen Seki emblem. But we can see they are on tachi-sided mei. So, I don't know what to think about that other than to assume it might have been an area inspector from that location. In 1943, the military stamping went to area specific stamps. The sakura is what made me think it was from the Association, as it matched the style of the Showa stamp. However, with the new data in mind, it may be more in line with the Toyokawa practice of using the sakura and anchor. So, we do know that an arsenal, Toyokawa, used the sakura. Maybe the Army, or a local inspector created this one. I just got a blade with a gifu stamp on the nakago (tachi mei) AND the back edge. Never seen that before. This is on a type 3 RS. Dated June of 1945 (Showa Ni Jyu Nen Roku Gatsu) 昭和二十年六月 <-- latest date I have owned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 If blades were special order, could the mei be requested by the purchaser to be on one side or the other? John C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 12 Author Report Share Posted June 12 4 hours ago, DTM72 said: a blade with a gifu stamp on the nakago (tachi mei) Looks like Yoshisada? I only have 1 other June 1945 with Gifu. It is the latest date on file for the stamp. 3 hours ago, John C said: If blades were special order, could the mei be requested by the purchaser to be on one side or the other? John C. Never heard any history on that, John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted June 12 Report Share Posted June 12 If it's special order, Generally, Special orders, don't have stamps. Saying that, I've seen a special order of a Showa to, with the owners name on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 13 Author Report Share Posted June 13 22 hours ago, David Flynn said: I think it just depends on the smith. If he thinks it reminds him of a Tachi, he signs Tachi Mei. Same for Katana Mei. Sorry I missed your post. If you’re talking about the industry in general, you may be right, however, the army was clearly only buying the blades with tachi mei. If you are talking about the RJT smiths, you may be right again. Any of us who worked under regulations of any kind know what that kind of work life is like. The majority of workers follow the rules, but there are always some who decide to disregard them. I think it’s possible that once someone got their RJT qualification, they probably got to feeling sassy about themselves and felt like they could sign their blades however they darn well pleased. The army probably didn’t like it, but took their blades anyway, considering the valuable steel that was invested and the never-ending need for more swords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted June 13 Report Share Posted June 13 Yasukuni and Minatogawa shrine swords invariably used Tachi Mei. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTM72 Posted June 13 Report Share Posted June 13 14 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said: Looks like Yoshisada? I only have 1 other June 1945 with Gifu. It is the latest date on file for the stamp. Yoshi 義 Tada 忠 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 13 Author Report Share Posted June 13 1 hour ago, DTM72 said: Tada 忠 Doh! Missed it by THAT much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTM72 Posted June 13 Report Share Posted June 13 25 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said: Doh! Missed it by THAT much! You only missed it by 1 letter. Close enough right? Tada Sada 忠 定 At a quick look, they somewhat look similar...especially once chiseled in the chippy Showato fashion. Have you ever seen the Gifu stamp on the mune? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 13 Author Report Share Posted June 13 9 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said: Yasukuni and Minatogawa shrine swords invariably used Tachi Mei. Just did a quick browse through both, and you're right! Fits the pattern for Army specs. Interesting that the Minatogawa blades are tachi side, though, seeing that the Toyokawa blades are all katana-side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted June 13 Author Report Share Posted June 13 A sixth 1944 katana-mei with large Seki stamp posted by @partyjam3 here: It's well into the years of Army spec blades with Army stamps with tach-mei. So, somehow, Seki Cutlery was still requiring katana-mei blades for inspection. Or maybe it was the other way 'round? Was the Army rejecting katana-mei blades and pushing them over to the Association for inspection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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