nulldevice Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 I'm looking at this late-kamakura era tachi and it seems to me that the bohi extends past the ko-shinogi. Does this look like the kissaki has been reshaped? Something just looks weird about the bohi to me. Most of the hisaki-agaru bohi I've seen don't extend past the shinogi in the kissaki like this one does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 Yes, the kissaki has clearly been reduced. This is not how the kissaki was originally structured, however it is also not a very significant problem in terms of the importance of a sword. You can see a similar feature in the tokuju Enju Kunitoki from the Compton collection. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nulldevice Posted June 6 Author Report Share Posted June 6 5 minutes ago, Ray Singer said: Yes, the kissaki has clearly been reduced. This is not how the kissaki was originally structured, however it is also not a very significant problem in terms of the importance of a sword. You can see a similar feature in the tokuju Enju Kunitoki from the Compton collection. Thanks for the confirmation! Good to know that it's not considered a major flaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 Looks like at least a cm of the original kissaki is lost. Odds are good the boshi is gone also and you're seeing a cosmetic boshi, added by the polisher. Many tachi from Kamakura and earlier have this problem. It isn't fatal but isn't insignificant either. Grey 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 15 minutes ago, Grey Doffin said: It isn't fatal but isn't insignificant either. Grey, just seeking clarification/education here. I always thought (wrongly?) the total loss of a boshi was considered technically fatal. Is it forgiven if the sword is historically significant? I know several important swords have this damage but are still (very) important swords. I’m just confused. Thanks. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, Ray Singer said: Yes, the kissaki has clearly been reduced. This is not how the kissaki was originally structured, however it is also not a very significant problem in terms of the importance of a sword. You can see a similar feature in the tokuju Enju Kunitoki from the Compton collection. I would like to know what makes you think that this kissaki has been reshaped? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 4 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: I would like to know what makes you think that this kissaki has been reshaped? Because the hi cuts right through the ko-shinogi. Now hi that go far forward are not that uncommon. But breaking the ko-shinogi is. And it is not that aesthetically pleasing. Which implies either the kissaki was taken back to where it is now, or the hi is atobori. But why would someone do that, knowing it looks odd? Hence the most logical explanation is the kissaki was shortened. And since we can't see the boshi...that is a valid supposition. Doesn't mean it's 100% correct, but it is a completely valid assumption. Are you now going to go searching for as any swords as you can with extended hi? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 ...just some further information for those who do not have this... John C. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 15 minutes ago, Jacques D. said: I would like to know what makes you think that this kissaki has been reshaped? This. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 That's a good point, but wouldn't it be a fault in the engraving of the hi in the case of an atobori? As far as I can see, the proportions of the kissaki look just right. As always, without seeing the blade.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Singer Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 No it would not be the case of a smith or horimono-shi intentionally running past the ko-shinogi. There's no reason to do that, and it's not something that would happen by accident. The kissaki has been lowered to a degree where the bo-hi runs into the kissaki itself. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nulldevice Posted June 6 Author Report Share Posted June 6 I imagine that intentionally starting the hi on the angled part of the kissaki and not following the shinogi would both be unaesthetic as well as difficult to drag the carving knife from an angled portion on the blade onto the shinogi-ji and then follow the shinogi down the rest of the length of the blade. It just seems impractical to me. Unfortunately the pictures available of this blade don't clearly show the boshi. They state it is sugu yakitsume but its hard to tell from the pictures. If the blade was shortened from the tip and the kaeri was lost, can you really state that its yakitsume? I won't claim to know better than the folks who have this blade in hand. The pictures just don't answer those questions for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, Grey Doffin said: Odds are good the boshi is gone also and you're seeing a cosmetic boshi, added by the polisher. There may be a sliver of the boshi remaining. Don't see evidence of a cosmetic boshi drawn in. It would have to be an important sword to warrant being repolished and papered with a failed boshi. Is this sword papered? Quote nulldevice writes; If the blade was shortened from the tip and the kaeri was lost, can you really state that its yakitsume? How else would you describe it? Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nulldevice Posted June 6 Author Report Share Posted June 6 23 minutes ago, Franco D said: There may be a sliver of the boshi remaining. Don't see evidence of a cosmetic boshi drawn in. It would have to be an important sword to warrant being repolished and papered with a failed boshi. Is this sword papered? How else would you describe it? Regards Its papered TH. I guess I was meaning, if the hamon runs out of the ha in the boshi, I wouldn't try to classify that as anything other than the hamon just running out. I understand that yakitsume just means the hamon turns to the mune without turning back to form any kaeri. If there is a sliver of boshi left, then what I said doesn't apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 11 minutes ago, nulldevice said: Its papered TH. Then almost for certain there is at least a sliver of a boshi remaining. 11 minutes ago, nulldevice said: I understand that yakitsume just means the hamon turns to the mune without turning back to form any kaeri. Quote en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Glossary_of_Japanese_swordsGlossary of Japanese swords - Wikipedia yakitsume (烧诘) – without turn-back (kaeri); a bōshi that continues directly to the back edge Yes, the boshi simply runs off is how I seem to recall it is talked about in the books. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 It's fairly obvious that the kissaki was reshaped. Note the transition and dip in the area circled. Also, could be imagining things, but I see what could be the boshi on the left side, thin and likely left over from what was much more originally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 Does anyone else see a difference in the angles and lengths of the Yokote on either side? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gakusee Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 38 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said: Does anyone else see a difference in the angles and lengths of the Yokote on either side? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 What surprises me is that the polisher didn't adapt the koshinogi to the hi. I've had kissaki repaired, and you can't tell it's been done. Once again, judging by photos is nothing more than the art of divination. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 5 hours ago, Jacques D. said: What surprises me is that the polisher didn't adapt the koshinogi to the hi. Each case is going to present its own challenges. The bo hi do not appear to have been perfectly symmetrical and lined up to each other on both sides. One side seems to run slightly deeper towards the tip than the other. Then, there has to be consideration for the distance from the tip to the ko shinogi across the top in relation to the placement and length of the yokote combined with how much boshi there is left to work with. Not an easy or simple task for the polisher especially if the hi are not perfectly aligned and now run into the kissaki. There is that, plus, we don't know what other challenges there may have been from previous polishes for the current polish/polisher. An excellent polisher will attempt to correct all previous polishing mistakes. There is only so much metal to work with. Regards 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 I did ask earlier but no joy. Please could someone clear up my confusion. Is the total loss of a boshi considered fatal? (I always thought that it was…same as hamon dropping off the ha) Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 8 minutes ago, Matsunoki said: Is the total loss of a boshi considered fatal? yes Regards 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 Thank you Franco. Thought I was goings nuts there for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisW Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 36 minutes ago, Matsunoki said: I did ask earlier but no joy. Please could someone clear up my confusion. Is the total loss of a boshi considered fatal? (I always thought that it was…same as hamon dropping off the ha) Thanks. It is a fatal flaw on any blade, but it can be considered somewhat forgivable on very old (early Kamakura or Heian) or very historically significant blades. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 Since I was the one to bring this up, let me add. I have been told by people who know a whole lot more than I do that cosmetic boshi is allowable and paper worthy on early blades without other fatal flaws. Kissaki are easily broken in use and reshaping the kissaki is the practical solution to the problem. Mr. Nakahara, in his book translated as Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords, goes so far as to say that the majority of early tachi with ko-kissaki have been broken and reshaped; it wasn't the original shape of the kissaki. What's more, a talented polisher can do a cosmetic boshi so well, I'm not sure anyone could know just by looking. If you can't tell if the boshi is cosmetic, how can you say the sword is fatally flawed? All this taken together means some great, highly esteemed blades, have lost their boshi and we all let it slide. Grey 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 44 minutes ago, Grey Doffin said: What's more, a talented polisher can do a cosmetic boshi so well, I'm not sure anyone could know just by looking. If you can't tell if the boshi is cosmetic, how can you say the sword is fatally flawed? All this taken together means some great, highly esteemed blades, have lost their boshi and we all let it slide. Grey This is why having the budget to purchase an expensive Japanese sword could mean that you're only making a more expensive mistake. But then, what's the problem if you can't tell the difference, right? Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 Surely a cosmetic boshi would be totally lacking in nie/nioi or any other metallurgical activity? The most talented togishi cannot create or replicate that? I’m still confused. Yes I do understand that it is tolerable on important swords but where do you draw the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted June 7 Report Share Posted June 7 Hello, NBTHK determines where the line(s) is/are drawn. Their game, their rules. Participation is voluntary. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matsunoki Posted June 8 Report Share Posted June 8 Hello Actually if it’s my money then it’s my game and my rules. I was simply trying to clarify if a missing boshi was fatal and thank you for clarifying Franco. Then I was trying to figure out how even the best togishi could create an artificial boshi that was undetectable in the absence of nie/nioi etc. Are they just using a Hadori technique?……or something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted June 8 Report Share Posted June 8 Sure there is a thread on that somewhere on here Colin, from memory. About the way a polisher can add the effect of an hamon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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