On a scale of 0-10, how fake is this sword?

George KN · June 5

Combine bad pictures from the seller and the huge variety of colours the WW2 Koshirae can come in, and I'm left a bit stumped as to whether this sword is fake or not:

I've had a search around the forums and I can't find any similar brown and black combo's. Has anyone seen this before?

I'm also a bit worried the brasswork looks a bit odd too.

So on a scale of 0-10 (10 being 100% fake), any thoughts on how I should rank this?

GeorgeLuucas · June 5

Please don't take my opinions here as fact:
- First and foremost, I have also never seen this combo of style and colors.

- My guess is that it's real, maybe with some "post-production" customization going on.

0-10 and 10 is fake? I’d give it a 4 for now, pending more images. Obviously a big wild guess with just the one photo.

Are you able to request more photos?
Best of luck,

-Sam

Brian · June 5

Just going by what I see at first glance, the shape, hamon that can be seen, and the habaki, I would call genuine. But with painted saya. There is a part of the saya that is still original?
I've seen many semi decent Gendaito with that habaki...including RJT swords.

Leen · June 5

Ask for more pictures, preferably including the Nakago

George KN · June 5

Thank you for the thoughts Sam and Brian, much appreciated! And Lee, I've definitely requested more pictures

Although it is hard to tell, it looks like the saya fittings have worn down to a silver colour - perhaps aluminium? Or conversely, they were painted silver and are now getting worn back to brass. I've not seen that before either...

Bruce Pennington · June 6

They are either worn by weather and abuse, or over polished and cleaned by collectors.

I have seen a variety of paint combinations, not this one, but quite a variety using black. It looks like it has age, so my personal guess would be some sort of personalization by the owner. The blackened handle wrap and the red on the menugi are in line with wartime blackened swords.

You can see many examples of this on this thread:

Thank

Thank you

robinalexander · June 6

Hi George,

The Ishizuke looks fake in the close up pic and Semegane looks equally dodgy

The Ashi just look so wrong from what I can see in a bad picture

Is the Same red colour (?) if so then thats not good and the Ito look like leather (?)

Ok it appears to have a hamon

All up, based on very bad pictures, I give it a 3/10 and I would not buy it based on what you have been given so far.

All the best.

George KN · June 6

Thanks Bruce and Rob for your thoughts - much appreciated!

Good news everybody, they sent more pictures.

Bad news though, they sent them 30 minutes before the auction began, so I didn't have enough time to ask anyone their opinion again 😂

The thing is, for better or worse I have actually bought the darned thing, for just under £300 (which is concerning, since I've seen fakes sell for more than that)

It was also only described as a "Japanese Naval Sword" - but as I understand this is likely incorrect?

The paint job is still a bit of a concern, but what do you all think now? Have I actually just bought my first WW2 sword, or failed badly?

paul griff · June 6

Hello George,

It’s a “Frankenstein “ made out of different gunto parts…..It’s not all fake but not really worth much either and a bad sword to start any collection..

Regards,

Paul..

Brian · June 6

Not sure why you say that. The blade looks to me like it may be a good Gendaito. Let's see that nakago. Blade may be worth the package by far. Holding thumbs.

George KN · June 6

Thanks Paul and Brian - I thought this sword might be a contentious one from the moment I saw it 😂

It is definitely rough around the edges - to my untrained eye I have already noticed the button/clasp to free the saya seems to be missing, and someone seems to have swapped the order of the seppa. I still question the aluminum look of the fittings on the saya too - is there anything else in particular that concerns you @paul griff?

Can't wait for this to get to me and actually open the tsuka to see what we have - so long as the blade itself is genuine and in one piece, I'm actually not too concerned about it being a Frankenstein 🙂 (if it even is)

GeorgeLuucas · June 6

I'm interested to see the Nakago. Keep us posted!

You may get some flack, but i'd also take a swing at only $300 :thumbsup:

Best of luck,
-Sam

Bruce Pennington · June 6

You got a steal at $300! I would bet a year's pay this is WWII legit. No one knows why the black (and sometimes red) is found on gunto, but it started in the kyugunto days and continued through WWII. The only thing missing is the chuso.

and, no, it’s not navy. It is army.

paul griff · June 6

Hello George,

You’re welcome and to answere your question ….A seasoned collector and dealer showed me what he believed was the best way to approach a new find or potential purchase before the excitement clouded your judgement ..Look at the sword in it’s saya and see if things match up…In the case of this sword they don’t,this type of saya needs a retention clip that goes through the tsuba which it cannot plus there appears to be a jumble of seppa both retention type and solid..Without better photo’s of the saya I cannot say it is genuine or not but the poor casting to the ashi and the material of the shibabiki look wrong..The tsuka has been badly painted and the kuchi-gane is missing it’s retention button enabling the solid tsuba to be fitted..The sarute looks ok so does the kabuki-gane with evidence of a mon…The blade has a silvered habaki which is nicely fitted onto a blade that is definitely genuine but to me looks oil quenched although heavily cleaned or polished with it’s rounded edges and loss of definition at the yakote…….From the photo’s the blade looks a good length and if it slides nicely into the saya then they are most probably mated….Hope this is helpful and not too negative..

Regards,

Paul..

PNSSHOGUN · June 7

Agree with Paul, some bodging has gone on. Fittings look later war, when the casting quality was pretty poor. For $300 bucks, worth the gamble.

GetFuzzy2 · June 7

Blade looks good and nice leather wrapped handle, you took a gamble and won. If he posted better pictures earlier you would not have this sword. Congratulations.

God Bless

lonely panet · June 7

10 hours ago, paul griff said:

Hello George,

It’s a “Frankenstein “ made out of different gunto parts…..It’s not all fake but not really worth much either and a bad sword to start any collection..

Regards,

Paul..

All i see is a money pit of junk

David Flynn · June 7

I'll go along with Brian. Blade looks to be a Gendaito, at least.

robinalexander · June 7

Bit like slowly opening presents at Xmas :roll:

Brian has it...let's see the nakago.

Oh and Bruce @Bruce Pennington 'you would bet a year's pay' (?)...... :rotfl: ....mate, your retired, you dont get 'payed' anymore. But sounded convincing anyway :thumbsup:

George IMO 300 is not unreasonable and potentially, you could learn so much from this piece (in hand!) and that may hold you in good stead down the track. Start reading though.

Now, where is that nakago :popcorn:

lonely panet · June 7

If its a run of the mill nagamitsu or emura. Then its a equal sum game.

If its a mumei gendai its not worth the cost of restoration.

Not even to mention the shirasaya or restoration of the gunto koshirae

3k to send easy

Brian · June 7

Many of you are looking at it as an item of militaria....to those who collect Nihonto, the blade is worth the gamble. Anything extra like genuine fittings etc are a bonus.
I'd have paid that just for the bare blade with habaki. It has that feel of a Nagamitsu or Emura to me. There are very different approaches from the Nihonto and military collectors. If it turns out to be a semi decent Gendaito, you could just put it into shirasaya, clean it a bit, and have a piece worth $1000+

George KN · June 7

Oh wow, wasn't expecting so many responses, thanks all!

I'm very much looking forward to getting it in hand, but I'm having to rely on the auctions postage and packing service, so I don't think I'll get it for at least a week.

When I do, I'll definitely take close up detailed pictures of all components - especially the nakago!

Also:

@GeorgeLuucas @Bruce Pennington @PNSSHOGUN @GetFuzzy2 @robinalexander - thanks for the comments about it being worth a gamble - I've definitely been burned by fakes before, but it's nice to know I've not gone completely off the rails here!

~~~

@paul griff - I appreciate the detailed feedback, and yes, I can definitely see some of the things you mention. Could part of the fittings have been changed during the course of the war? I can definitely see why someone would paint part of it black as a field modification. Although from the way it's applied it almost looks like they've used tar 😅

With regards to the solid tsuba - I do wonder whether the seppa have simply been turned around the wrong way which gives the impression there is no hole for a retention button. I guess we'll only know 100% once I take it all apart...

~~~

@lonely panet - money pit of junk? I know the paint and fittings aren't brilliant, but I'm not aiming for that - if even any part of it is genuinely from WW2, surely it's worth preserving in its own right?

I feel like what I'm learning just in this thread has already been worth the fee I paid 🙂

~~~

@Brian you've hit the nail on the head here - I would love all the correct fittings, but it's the blade that holds the vast majority of the historic and artistic value to me. Any sword I would see normally in this price bracket on public auctions are usually absolute trainwrecks of rust or sandpaper scratches. It would actually look really good in a shirasaya too...

John C · June 7

6 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

if even any part of it is genuinely from WW2,

George:

May I also suggest reading through the Arsenal Stamp thread. Forty five pages of great information and it will help train your eye to look at real ones.

John C.

DTM72 · June 7

Judging by the choji style hamon near the habaki, I might be willing to bet this could be an Emura or a Nagamitsu.

tokashikibob · June 7

Great buy, you can sell the parts for more than $300 and keep the blade for free. Not sure what 300 pounds buys in England but $300 bucks in the U.S. of A is a family dinner at McDonalds and the gas to get you there and back.

George KN · June 13

Good news, the auction have shipped the sword today via UPS! I'm hoping it will be with me either tomorrow or Saturday. It was a real concern of mine they would either totally refuse to ship it, or couldn't find a carrier, especially since Royal Mail will no longer take them.

In the meantime I have literally spent all week (between bouts of actually doing my job as a programmer) reading through the historic threads - so far made it through 48 of the 131 pages on this subsection alone! The wealth of knowledge here is downright incredible.

Especially since learning Showato are mostly illegal in Japan (and regularly destroyed 😭) I'm actually quite keen to acquire one now. Regardless I just want to get the darned thing in my hands!!

George KN · June 17

The sword has finally arrived today! Better late than never. Also, it's mekugi was missing, which is the second time this has happened from an auction...

It is strangely a very colourful sword - I'm still at work, but will try to post more pics when I can.