Could it be Bizen Kiyomitsu? Which one?

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

Please help on identifying this Bizen Osafune? Could it be Kiyomitus? Any ideas which one? Currently sword is getting its Koshirae renovation so I don't have access to it. But please let me know if specific pictures could help, I will do my best to deliver. 

 

What is the meaning/purpose of 4 dots on Nakago? 

 

Nagasa: 49.7 cm.
Sori: 1.5 cm.
Moto-haba: 2.7 cm.
Saki-haba: 1.7 cm.
Moto-gasane: 0.7 cm.
Saki-gasane: 0.5 cm.

 

 

[lonely panet]

The mei is very far off any sort of quality you see in bizen stuff.  They are well known for long, neat, attractive well cut mei. 

 

Its ubu so the mei should be intact

So the potential for a later gimei is likely. Crabclaw is commonly associated with sukesada group

[2devnul]

12 minutes ago, lonely panet said:

Crabclaw is commonly associated with sukesada group

 

Hi, thanks for quick feedback. Not sure I understand this sentence. Are you referring (Crab-Claw?) to 4 dots I asked about? 

 

14 minutes ago, lonely panet said:

So the potential for a later gimei is likely.

[lonely panet]

Crabclaw is the style of hamon. Could be gunome in there too.

 

Its got a bizen style nakago and sakizori.

A very nicely shaped katateuchi.. .

 

I would say its definitely osafune bizen school. Dates approx 1500s.

 

Iv attended a oshigata of something i to compare

[Mark S.]

It would have to be signed:

“Bizen ju Kiyomitsu”

 

Without digging through my books and looking through all Kiyomitsu, I am not sure if any Kiyomitsu signed this way.  Usually there is a Kuni or Koku and Osafune included in one form or another, but I don’t remember ever seeing just “Bizen ju”.

If I squint and stare real hard, I ‘think’ I can see the following strokes (in red) of “mitsu”.  Unless I could find a mei example that was just “Bizen ju Kiyomitsu” I would assume gimei.

 

 

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

Thank you gentlemen for your comments. To bad if it is Gimei, still, I think it is very nice ~1550 Koto Bizen Osafune. I will share photos after Koshirae renovation soon. 

 

Still an open question, what are the 4 dots on Nakago? Does it mean anything? 

[Jacques D.]

Typical sue Bizen kazu-uchi mono

[2devnul]

Koshirae renovation completed. Fuchi/Menuki/Kashira/Tsuba stayed original (late Edo), Samegawa/Magnolia wood/Silk Tsuka-ito/buffalo horn imported from Japan and replaced. What do you think? 

 

 

[Alex A]

Someone thought the blade worthy enough to add bo-hi.

[2devnul]

1 hour ago, Alex A said:

Someone thought the blade worthy enough to add bo-hi.

Interesting, do you think bohi was added later? How can you tell? 

 

Still, even if it's Gimei it is my first Koto blade and I like it very much. Koshirae is also added value for me.

[Alex A]

They are always added later, as in after the blade was made. lol

 

Bo-hi was common on Bizen blades of that era, so id say its realistic to assume it was done not long after the blade was made.

 

Impossible to be certain.

[Jacques D.]

The main purpose of bohi is to lighten the blade; they are very common on kazu-uchi mono.

[atm]

The renovated koshirae looks nice.

[2devnul]

16 hours ago, Alex A said:

They are always added later, as in after the blade was made. lol

 

Misunderstanding here, I thought you are suggesting that bo-hi was added much later, in Edo period or something. 

 

On 6/8/2024 at 9:34 AM, Jacques D. said:

Typical sue Bizen kazu-uchi mono

What makes you think it is Kazuuchimono? Is it just because the sword is not your property? I understand that if it was in your possession it wouldn't be neither Kazuuchimono nor Gimei. 

 

14 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

The main purpose of bohi is to lighten the blade; they are very common on kazu-uchi mono.

Another bold statement. AFAIK Kazuuchimono due to cheap mass production usually doesn't have bo-hi or such nice Hamon. 

[Jacques D.]

Quote

What makes you think it is Kazuuchimono?

 

Have a look at the nakago. A quality sword is well made from the tip of the kissaki to the nakagojiri - yours has a "sloppy" nakago.

 

Quote

Another bold statement. AFAIK Kazuuchimono due to cheap mass production usually doesn't have bo-hi or such nice Hamon. 

Can you source it ?

 

 

Wasn't it you who refused to accept that your sword is a kazu-uchi mono ?  Around 80% of swords with a hozon are kazu-uchi mono

 

[Brian]

There is no way to determine exactly what a kazu-uchi-mono is, so making a definite call that something is, is meaningless. During a time of war, some smiths made swords that were more utilitarian, and others chose to make good swords on order. Unless someone was there at the time, you can't go by anything except actual quality.
At best, it's a guess. And based on each sword's characteristics. You can't say a sword with X nakago or Y hamon is definitely a bundle sword. All you can do is make an educated guess based on features. Anything extra that was added, counts a little bit against that call. A basic mumei sword showing poor forging and a hasty hamon would point more towards that. A nice hamon, good forging, decent shape...no matter when made, reduces the possibility. So calling anything a kazu-uchi-mono is a guess at best. It's not an official designation, and saying that 80% of Hozon swords are in that category is laughable, as that implies that 80% of Hozon swords are made during those specific years, which is not true.
Feel free to throw out that opinion if you like, but the features point away from it, and even if it is...doesn't make it any less of a genuine antique sword made for use.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Around 80% of swords with a hozon are kazu-uchi mono

Evidence? Statistics?

[2devnul]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Around 80% of swords with a hozon are kazu-uchi mono

I will treat this statement as a joke ...

 

54 minutes ago, Brian said:

There is no way to determine exactly what a kazu-uchi-mono is

I fully agree with this. We can only assume based on sword quality/attribution if it was a war-blade or not. 

 

When I think about war-blades I see swords mass produced, quickly/cheaply finished, with one purpose = use them on battlefield without worrying to much about damage or fate of the blade. I can not imagine that these swords were kept for generations, polished and passed from father to soon. They might be salvage after battle by peasants/bandits, maybe melted and used to reforge something else (tools?). But again, bo-hi + decent Hamon + keeping the blade for generations ... seems no logic here in case of cheap, mass produced, condemned for one-time-use only sword. 

 

Anyway, as a total amateur in Nihonto topic I can only express my own feelings about this topic. But I totally disagree with statements that majority (not to mention NBTHK papered examples) of antique Nihonto being Kazu-Uchi-Mono. 

 

 

[Alex A]

Connoisseurs describes Kazuuchi-mono as having a surface where shingane appear due to economizing on materials. That does not sound like the type of sword you want to cut a Bo-hi on. Also describes them with "rough masame" hada. There were real junk blades, the kind that went of to China. Lets not forget that they were ALL handmade, from junk to average to decent to good. Its not like they were all stamped out on machinery . 

 

Someone had to pay, request to have that bo-hi cut. Your never going to know the story behind it. I cant see a certain general or whoever demanding that all the mass produced waks for his army of Ashigaru have a customized B0-hi

 

Have a Sue Seki tanto here with Bo-hi, cant see it saving much weight. Perhaps with the spoils of war someone decided to upgrade it, A newly promoted Ashigaru to the position of Samurai, who knows. 

 

The Nakago on the blade above looks to have seen a bit of an hard life, so in that respect i find it a bit difficult to judge. Seen Nakago just like that on blades dated to Eisho. If you read Aois write-ups they often describe Eisho as non mass produced , made during peaceful times. Some just look a bit rough with use.

 

Not bothered looking into the mei, who knows, it may have been unsigned originally. If so, there's a thousand reasons a blade could be unsigned, even blades that were not mass produced.

 

This is the thing about stuff that was made over 400 years ago, its not all black and white but plenty of grey.

 

Decent sword. like the koshirae.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

Brian

How many swords have you held ? What's the difference between a simple practical sword and a chumon uchi one ?

[Jacques D.]

Quote

Connoisseurs describes Kazuuchi-mono as having a surface where shingane appear due to economizing on materials.

I would add that shingane and kawagane are both tamahagane.

[Mark S.]

6 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Brian

How many swords have you held ?

   Albatross 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Back to this ridiculous pissing contest....

[Jussi Ekholm]

I would agree with Jacques on this, as I would see that it is a basic practical Sue-Bizen sword from late Muromachi period.

 

I don't think people should think negatively of practical swords. I personally like them even though they will not have as much artistic merits as the top examples of the school from that period.

 

Combined with the koshirae I think you have a nice package there. I do unfortunately think it might be gimei as that type of signature wasn't too common during late Muromachi (from memory without references).

 

While not giving any percentages there are lots and lots of practical swords surviving to this day. And it is understandable why would anyone throw away a perfectly good weapon.

[Tom Darling]

Jussi, you've got a good eye.