Wondering what this imperfection is

[greebo]

Hello,

 

It is difficult to see this imperfection on the shinogi-ji under normal lighting. I've decided it might not be rust but I'd like to know what it is, I'm still learning but haven't seen a flaw like this yet. Also curious to know whether or not you guys would think this is worth returning over. There's a bunch of flaws on the blade that I honestly feel weren't reflected well (if at all) in the listing's pictures, but this is probably the worst one.

 

Hitting it with light from underneath where it has a warm tone/color:

 

Hitting it with light from above:

 

How the sword was advertised, showing the same area on the shinogi-ji close to where the habaki would be:

 

Thank you guys.

 

Joseph

[Matsunoki]

It’s rust. Only you can decide whether to return it or not. Depends on many things…..how much you paid, what the other flaws are etc. 

[greebo]

29 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

It’s rust. Only you can decide whether to return it or not. Depends on many things…..how much you paid, what the other flaws are etc. 

Ah, man. It has nearly no coloration while examining it under normal lighting, so it was hard to tell.. when I hit it with a lamp from a certain angle tonight was when it only caused some concern for me.

 

I'll probably end up talking to the dealer to see what they can do for me, then. They have a no returns policy for overseas purchases, which is understandable since it's probably a pain to get swords back into Japan.

 

I think you can actually see the marks in the dealer provided picture above, but they're very faint- perhaps I should've been more observant. The dealer is listed as a trusted vendor here but not widely known, so I took a shot with them this go-around.

 

Thanks!

[Matsunoki]

There are some metallurgical experts on here who can explain the different types and colours of rust…..from nearly white to orange to black, powder rust, spider rust etc. 

These look like small areas that have been previously cleaned off before they got too deep.

Have a search on here re looking after a blade…..tons of advice. Most important is to keep it very thinly coated in a suitable oil and store in as dry an environment as you can.

[Lewis B]

I concur with others. Looks like rust that has had a treatment to remove the active corrosion. I have seen high grit silicon carbide power used to clean up surface rust, without leaving scratches. Anyone else think the dealer supplied photo looks filtered eg softening, to minimise the defects on the blade?

[greebo]

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

There are some metallurgical experts on here who can explain the different types and colours of rust…..from nearly white to orange to black, powder rust, spider rust etc. 

These look like small areas that have been previously cleaned off before they got too deep.

Have a search on here re looking after a blade…..tons of advice. Most important is to keep it very thinly coated in a suitable oil and store in as dry an environment as you can.

Yes, I am mostly only familiar with black & orange. I was hesitant to call it so, even though it was my first guess. This sword won't ever really leave its saya, and when it does it'll always get a full clean & oil before going back in

 

10 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

 Anyone else think the dealer supplied photo looks filtered eg softening, to minimise the defects on the blade?

I hate to say it, but when I got the sword and compared it to the pictures, this is what I thought too.. Other dealers who use similar shots have milder flaws that are able to be made out very clearly. I will take more pictures of it later & provide the full dealer pics so I can gather more experienced opinions. This sword got NBTHK Hozon papers in '22, and while its condition is definitely worthy of it, it's not what I paid for.

[Lewis B]

20 minutes ago, greebo said:

Yes, I am mostly only familiar with black & orange. I was hesitant to call it so, even though it was my first guess. This sword won't ever really leave its saya, and when it does it'll always get a full clean & oil before going back in

 

I hate to say it, but when I got the sword and compared it to the pictures, this is what I thought too.. Other dealers who use similar shots have milder flaws that are able to be made out very clearly. I will take more pictures of it later & provide the full dealer pics so I can gather more experienced opinions. This sword got NBTHK Hozon papers in '22, and while its condition is definitely worthy of it, it's not what I paid for.

I can understand why you don't want to name the dealer so no need to confirm or deny, but the images look a lot like those found on the Katana no Kura website. They seem to consistently overexpose the images to minimise the finer details on the blade. The consequence being that buyers can be disappointed when they see the sword in person.  AOI seem to offer for more naturalistic images that more closely match reality. Caveat emptor.

[Matsunoki]

Joseph

Nor sure if you intend to buy more swords but, living in the USA you have so many clubs, shows, dealers etc …..why take a chance buying from very bland images which will hardly ever tell the full story or give a true impression of the blade……and from a dealer who will not accept returns. Unless you know and trust the seller it’s a real gamble. There are also some trustworthy and knowledgeable sellers on this Forum. 
Let us know what the dealer says. I would not be happy based on what we see so far. What did his description say about condition?
 

[greebo]

43 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

I can understand why you don't want to name the dealer so no need to confirm or deny, but the images look a lot like those found on the Katana no Kura website. They seem to consistently overexpose the images to minimise the finer details on the blade. The consequence being that buyers can be disappointed when they see the sword in person.  AOI seem to offer for more naturalistic images that more closely match reality. Caveat emptor.

The dealer is Samurai Shokai (linked). They are under the Commercial 3 drop down in Nihonto Info / Links up top.

 

26 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Joseph

Nor sure if you intend to buy more swords but, living in the USA you have so many clubs, shows, dealers etc …..why take a chance buying from very bland images which will hardly ever tell the full story or give a true impression of the blade……and from a dealer who will not accept returns. Unless you know and trust the seller it’s a real gamble. There are also some trustworthy and knowledgeable sellers on this Forum. 
Let us know what the dealer says. I would not be happy based on what we see so far. What did his description say about condition?
 

I understand where you are coming from. The seller is listed up top in the drop downs of these forums. I did a little research both on here & reddit- it seemed like they were just terse with gaijin, but overall trustworthy/didn't burn anyone. I usually stick to e-sword and Aoi-Art. Sometimes we learn lessons the hard way, unfortunately. If it comes down to it, I can initiate a dispute on PayPal or chargeback from my CC if necessary.

[Matsunoki]

We all slip up now and then. Good luck with getting something sorted.

[Jacques D.]

It's the eternal problem of buying a sword without having seen it. Having said that, I'll leave it to the soothsayers to tell  what the defect is,  I can't do it without seeing it with my own eyes.

[greebo]

49 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

We all slip up now and then. Good luck with getting something sorted.

Thanks, I'll keep this thread updated with communications from the dealer for anyone interested.

[Schneeds]

I browse that site pretty often.  They are definitely using a low contrast, diffused lighting setup but they do that for every blade so I think it's just a chosen method/preference as opposed to trying to be deceitful.  Some blades it probably does a disservice to actually.  If I had to guess they're reducing the clarity and texture filters as well in Photoshop to give it that soft look.  It makes it pretty hard to judge the blades, at least for a newbie like me.  Below are examples of some sites that I think have high quality photography. 

 

https://swordsofjapan.com/

https://www.owazamono.com/fine-swords

https://eirakudo.shop/

http://world.seiyudo.../?orderby=price-desc

[PNSSHOGUN]

There are a number of Japanese dealers that have rather dismal, highly edited photos, even for swords offered for tens of millions of yen. Is the assumption buyers would visit the store? 

 

https://iidakoendo.com/11509/

[BjornLundin]

Me like http://world.seiyudo...m/product/ka-121222/

 

 

[Lewis B]

2 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

There are a number of Japanese dealers that have rather dismal, highly edited photos, even for swords offered for tens of millions of yen. Is the assumption buyers would visit the store? 

 

https://iidakoendo.com/11509/

That's terrible. Are they using camera equipment from 1880?

[Shugyosha]

No, it's a flat bed scanner - that's why they have to photoshop in a mune afterwards (presumably whilst covering up the defects) as it doesn't show in the scanned image. Aoi use the same sort of kit and I thought that this was one of their blades when I saw the photo.

 

[Alex A]

Even if is Japan, tell them you are sending it back.

 

Undisclosed flaws is the worst trick.