Yoshiro / Heianjo Tsuba

[Justin]

Hi everyone,

 

Hope you’re having a great day.

 

i submitted the below tsuba to shinsa recently and it received Tokubetsu Hozon with a ‘Heianjo Zogan’ attribution. I thought it might come back as Yoshiro (or more optimistically Yoshiro Naomasa).

https://tosogucollec...heianjo-zogan-tsuba/

 

I know Yoshiro is a branch of Heianjo, however would there be a reason the NBTHK stopped at just Heianjo?

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Justin

 

 

 

[zanilu]

It looks like the essence  of Kaga Yoshiro. A manual piece!

 

But what do I know... 

 

Regards

Luca

[Justin]

Thanks Luca.

 

I noticed this tsuba for sale with a paper from 2016. This says Yoshiro.

 

i see my tsuba as more ‘Yoshiro’ compared to this one.

 

Perhaps NBTHK has had a change of policy and only assign Heianjo Zogan now?

 

 

[zanilu]

I am lost!

 

I have collected many Yoshiro pieces example here:

 

 

I have always found frustrating the fact that NBTHK does not provide justification, reasons and references the leader to an attribution. To me the shinsa process is rather opaque!

 

Regards 

Luca

[Soshin]

1 hour ago, zanilu said:

 

I have always found frustrating the fact that NBTHK does not provide justification, reasons and references the leader to an attribution. To me the shinsa process is rather opaque!

 

It is an appraisal paper not a research paper or any other type of academic document. This is not a realistic expectation for any appraisal system. Does the PCGS or NGC do this with every coin they grade?     

[zanilu]

David I agree that it should not be an achademic paper but the criteria used should be given at least...

 

Regards

Luca

[Ed]

This kind of attribution is common these days.  From what I understand it is a multi faceted problem. Older shinsa team members have passed on or retired. Newer members are not knowledgeable enough to be confident in more specific attributions. They err on the side of safety. Same with swords, just look at the results of last years juyo shinsa, 80% fail rate if memory serves me. 

 

[MauroP]

 

Quote

To me the shinsa process is rather opaque!

Luca, stai parlando male di Garibaldi!

(it's an Italian idiomatic expression to say that some opinions cannot be challenged even if overtly misleading)

[Ed]

18 hours ago, MauroP said:

it's an Italian idiomatic expression to say that some opinions cannot be challenged even if overtly misleading

Mauro,

That is not entirely true. When I co-owned my small shop in Fukuoka there several times when we disagreed with an NBTHK attribution. My partner who was Japanese went to the NBTHK and confronted them about their attribution. Of course he went armed with documentation to support our opinion, but every time their decision was changed in our favor.

 

I always felt it was due to them being overwhelmed with the volume of swords they were required to judge in such a short period of time. They simple do not have time to do proper research on the swords which require more time. You have probably seen a shinsa outside Japan, it is conveyer belt style with each sword receiving 1-2 minutes of judgement. If not textbook perfect, it gets bounced.

[zanilu]

On 5/31/2024 at 6:20 PM, MauroP said:

Quote

To me the shinsa process is rather opaque!

Luca, stai parlando male di Garibaldi!

(it's an Italian idiomatic expression to say that some opinions cannot be challenged even if overtly misleading)

I know Mauro. But this case "Chiede vendetta" (calls for vengeance)!

 

Regards

Luca

[MauroP]

All right folks, first of all I want to assure that no intended disrespect to NBTHK shinsa activity from me. Simply I feel sometime confortable in expressing a different opinion.
Here below another tsuba attributed to Heianjō-zōgan, showing a quite typical decoration with ranma-sukashi usually associated with Yoshirō-zōgan tsuba.

I fully agree with Luca when he says that the tsuba we are dealing about is a "manual piece". Indeed here below the tsuba submitted by Justin paired with a very close example described as Yoshirō, taken from "Tanoshi Shinchū Zōgan Tsuba: 100 Tsuba" by Ōtani Sadao.