Reasonably priced Naginata

[Shugyosha]

4 hours ago, Alex A said:

Franco, there is nothing more to discuss. I presented a naginata at a fair price for folks seeking a naginata on a budget. Then it turned into this mess. Just a Naginata, not an "arty farty" masterpiece we can all talk about for days on end, for £1200 what do folks expect????????????????????????

 

Really wish i hadn't bothered, wont happen again. Beginning understand why folks retire

 

Jacques. Not getting into further discussion, not when you talk nonsense. Perhaps you need to study more blades from the likes of Uda, Dotanuki smiths etc. Blanket statements and putting everything in boxes is your weakness, you need to work on it. Perhaps being more specific in future will work better for you.

 

I feel for you Alex: it just goes to prove the assertion that God lets no good deed go unpunished. Jacques is indeed the flagellum Dei.

[Brian]

Round and round arguments going nowhere. Really guys, you're better than this.
Here's the facts: To Nihonto purists, there are a ton of non-collectible Japanese swords out there. High end collectors and students like Darcy, Ray Perreira, Guido, Reinhard etc would likely agree with this. Darcy used to tell me "avoid buying xxx swords, they are a dime a dozen and not collectible" and although I chose to ignore that, I understood where he's coming from. If you reach a certain level, and truly believe in Nihonto as art rather than weapon, you tend to disregard average stuff and stuff made purely to be used as "beneath" collecting. I don't think it's justified to slam people who think like that. They have the finances or means or decision to pursue the better "art" swords.
But on the other hand, they can express their opinion, but can't insist the rest of us collect like that.
The truth is that many of us like the romanticism of "Samurai swords" and the fact that many were used in historical battles etc adds to our interest. I am not in the league of the people mentioned above. But I do respect their dedication and enthusiasm for the art and quality aspects of better swords. It's like religion though, I respect your dedication to X religion, as long as you don't push it on me or try to denigrate my choice.
I feel many here tend to forget that others have the right to collect what they want. And conversely, some forget that purists have the right to try and point out the art aspects.
Jacques, I detest your troll-like ability to rile people up. But I'm also able to read the initial comment, and go "You do you, if you don't consider it collectible, then you collect what you like, I noted your comment and am going to choose to collect at the level I enjoy"
People should have done the same. Yes thanks, we note you don't think it's a great deal, but we like the style and utilitarian aspect, and think it's a good deal.
But both sides immediately get personal, which helps nothing.
Would I own it? Gladly. It won't go TH, but it's a nice example for people who like naginata and don't have $5000 to play with. Done...acknowledged and set aside. Why would I let it get to me?

Alex, considering the tens of thousands of page views a month (actually 100's of thousands) why would you care about one person's views? There are likely thousands that looked at it and agreed.
Jacques, who do you feel the need to harass? You could have just as easily written "It's priced lower because xxxxx and I don't think it's an art sword because xxxx"
The seller is irrelevant, and knocking an item because it's sold by X or Y is pathetic. We all know which dealers sell mainly to the Western market, but I know top collectors who get good stuff from Aoi because they have a relationship with him, and those items never make it to the website. He caters for a certain market and is good at it. Far better than buying off eBay. If you continue to make it personal, or knock member's items continuously with a lack of tact, then play elsewhere.

Said my say. I don't require responses to the above or counterpoints. Agree or not...this isn't the place to debate it.

[Rivkin]

16 minutes ago, Brian said:

 High end collectors and students like Darcy, Ray Perreira, Guido, Reinhard etc would likely agree with this.

 

 

Brian, they are your friends. Collectors, experts, historians - its a different crowd.

[Brian]

None of them are "my friends" and I only met 2 of them once before. You know what I mean. I could just have easily substituted a long list of Japanese names, or European ones. Or the entire shinsa panel. Out of all the things I said, you chose this to debate?? That there are people in the Nihonto world that consider these pure art, and aren't bowled over by lesser works or strictly utilitarian swords? That people who only collect Joyo or higher swords look down on kazu uchimono or basic Hozon swords as beneath them? That's exactly my point. There are different crowds. You have to allow for that.
 

[Alex A]

What I've learned, never be surprised at what folks collect, even folks you think only collect high end stuff.

 

Guido once bought a sword off me from a very modest school........Dotanuki.

 

He was happy with it.

 

Not an "art sword" by the way,.

 

Big old clunker.

[PNSSHOGUN]

We shouldn't celebrate mediocrity, perceived or real, but we shouldn't disparage those buying the best they can find within their means. 

[paulb]

Thank you Brian I believe you summarised the situation very well. I have enjoyed listening to those who have focused on the top end either as students or collectors their enthusiasm and knowledge inspires people like me to work harder to understand the subject.  I have also enjoyed the enthusiasm and commitment from those who for whatever reason could never reach the hallowed turf of High-Art swords and they outnumber those who can by a very very long way. Whether art or not some of these works have survived hundreds of years and have passed through many hands that have valued them for whatever reason. If someone is happy to continue that then  they deserve respect not condemnation.

 

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

None of them are "my friends" and I only met 2 of them once before. You know what I mean. I could just have easily substituted a long list of Japanese names, or European ones. Or the entire shinsa panel. Out of all the things I said, you chose this to debate?? That there are people in the Nihonto world that consider these pure art, and aren't bowled over by lesser works or strictly utilitarian swords? That people who only collect Joyo or higher swords look down on kazu uchimono or basic Hozon swords as beneath them? That's exactly my point. There are different crowds. You have to allow for that.
 

 

Brian, your friends - do not collect at high level. No one ever heard of "Guido collection". It never existed.

They do not publish books. They do not really understand kantei. Oh, I forgot - its because its pixels. In real life it would have been different... not.

If someone barges into every conversations telling people they collect wrong, think wrong and buy wrong - does not mean he is a Collector and a thinker. Its just a personally trait.

Even if someone actually buys a Juyo blade from a top notch Japanese store and then lists it for 20% more - it still does not make him a collector. Or an expert.

They are your friends - virtual or real life. Unfortunately besides your and your friend's endless promotion - there is nothing. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I was very priviliged to join a sword viewing event today that featured 20 high quality swords. And I agree with others that there are levels to collecting. However not everything in my collecting dream is focused on quality. I cannot afford that way of collecting.

 

I believe it is important to find your own way in collecting. I have realized my own ultimate preference hasn't really changed all that much. 😅

 

However it is important to try to understand quality, and the difference in items. I admit I often struggle with some very high level items, while with some it is easier to understand the desirability.

 

For example perhaps my favorite sword of the day was big naoshi with Hōju attribution, it just hit me. However I understand that for example the Tokubetsu Jūyō swords were far above that one, still I cannot explain it by reason. I am just looking the list of all the wonderful swords I wrote down, and I even puzzle myself how I liked the Hōju so much.

 

I don't think the naginata in the opening is a bad item. I feel it is just a normal sword. For my own collecting preferences it lacks the size that is very important to me, and it is of shape that I dont personally like. On the plus side it is ubu and signed.

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Reading over the original post again, surprisingly how it has spiraled out of control and into the stratosphere 

 

Got to laugh.

 

Its just a Naginata., a reasonably priced one

[Jacques D.]

I have a question: Who here can say that the price of this naginata is the right price? Hozon just says that the mei is authentic, nothing else.

[Alex A]

Could you be more specific?, bit confused by the question?

 

You think its too expensive?, too cheap? or maybe the price is right?

[DoTanuki yokai]

I answer the “what is this” questions everyday on Reddit in most cases the questions are “is it of historical relevance and how much value”. 
 

Most of the stuff are abused sad conditioned swords bought for a few $ 

 

Yesterday I thought about telling someone that they buy uninteresting crap and I don’t understand why someone would spent any money on it because their only reason to buy it was that it is authentic Japanese. 
 

I did not because even this people put money into the Nihonto world and that is a good thing, most will be happy with what they bought anyway.
They don’t care what they have, they don’t understand it and maybe someday when they understand they will laugh. 
 

It is not my money that is burned. 
I stopped to judge them because it will make everyone depressive. 
 

I don’t even looked at the Naginata but I’m sure Jacques is not totally wrong. 

One of my friends bought a signed Tadahiro Naginata with TH for around 4000€ and I would say that was a much better deal.  
 

So I wouldn’t tell someone to buy a thing that is uninteresting for the majority of collectors where he will most likely have problems to sell it again because people with knowledge think it is uninteresting and people like him don’t believe him what it is because he is not a Japanese seller with a nice suit. 
 

[paulb]

Jacques 

We have had this conversation in the past my understanding has always been that being awarded a hozon paper means it is worthy of preservation. It therefore has to be in reasonable condition and without fatal flaws. Exceptions may be made if something has a valuable history. But a hozon papers says more about a blade than just the mei is authentic.  

Has something changed recently?

 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Who here can say that the price of this naginata is the right price

Nothing, absolutely nothing in this world has a “right price” and Nihonto are no exception. Exactly the same as for a pint of milk or a Ferrari. Depends on the circumstances of the sale, who is selling , where it is being sold, who is buying it, is there local competition or choice for either buyer or seller etc etc

Bottom line is - if both parties are happy then it’s as close to a “right price” as you are going to get.

Opinions on values are totally subjective unless you own the Nihonto equivalent of a car dealers handbook…..and even then they are expressed as a range of values.

Same rules apply….balance of supply/demand, law of diminishing returns etc

 

[Mark S.]

I’m sorry Brian… delete if you wish.  
 

HYPOTHETICALLY, if a newer member of the nihonto world were to purchase that naginata and was happy with it, wanted to join this NMB community and share that blade and their ‘newbie’ excitement, but just so happened to read this thread first, my guess is they would be reluctant to share that purchase, learn more, and really want to take part in all this.  They could clearly see the reception waiting for them WITHOUT knowing the players involved.  Long time members know what they are dealing with.  
 

I’ll be honest… it is a reason I don’t post too many of my blades just for fun anymore.  I truly hope no one else is made to feel this way… it’s just me.  I have shared blades by PM if I think it will help a person asking a question on the general forums… but opening it up to the albatross’s of the world… hell no.  Done that a couple times and not really interested anymore.  Lots of nice people here, but something that should be enjoyable has turned into an ordeal akin to flopping your privates out on a table and letting everyone whack at it with a stick for a while.  Fun… no?

 

Why does this all bother me?  I was that same newbie at my first Sword Show MANY years ago (I won’t say which one or the parties involved by name out of respect).  Little knowledge, little money, lots of enthusiasm, knew no one, VERY nervous I was at my first ‘real’ show.  Brought in a family owned short mumei katana in WW2 gunto mounts that was owned by a work friend of mine hoping I could learn a little and pass that info on to him.  Did I think it was a treasure… no, I knew just enough to know that.  
 

First person I met was an albatross.  He saw me carrying it and came over to me.  Asked what I had and asked if he could see it.  He drew the blade and asked me if it was signed.  When I said no, he frowned, put it back in scabbard and mumbled something to the effect of “it’s worthless”.  Without another word, turned and walked away from me.  My welcome to the nihonto world.  
 

Not sure if the next person I met saw this or was just coincidence.  At the next table was a dealer who smiled and asked me what I had.  Took it all apart, answered all my questions, gave me his thoughts INCLUDING the evaluation it wasn’t a national treasure, but he also shared (contrary to popular belief) some things I could learn from it.  Took the time to show me a couple of his blades and explained the differences and things to look for.  He also pointed to a couple other people (names you would know) and said I should go talk to them.  Maybe he knew they would take pity on me.  I purchased a blade from this gentleman years later.  
 

The first albatross?… to this day I will never so much as look at an item on his table and avoid him like the plague.  I’m sure if he knew it, he would still be quite proud of himself.  Albatross’s are like that.

 

Now my place in the nihonto world is small and unremarkable, so maybe I’m wrong and should consider beer can collecting.  But I’m still here for whatever it is worth (to me).  The albatross almost killed that.  He was more interested in his albatross status than he was in a potential new person.  
 

How many do we lose?  What do we want here?

[Brian]

The idea that there are no rough prices is not really valid.
We all know if you want to buy a fair wakizashi to start out with on a budget, then the name is not going to matter too much, the polish will hopefully be ok enough to see hamon and hada and the fittings will be mediocre, and you would probably find one around $1200. A similar katana that is antique...around $2500 or so.
Naginata with nice lines, not many ware...well shaped, have always been around $2500 up.
There are a million things that can affect those rough guides, but we all know when you see something that has no fatal flaws, and the polish is semi decent....without caring about who signed it, you have a general start price in mind. Find a katana for $1500 like that? You know it needs to be looked at further with a possible deal in the making. Add good koshirae and excellent polish, you know that baseline price is going up to $4K+...
It's a general guide. I see 100 poorly shaped naginata before I see one that appeals to me that has decent size, a neatly but hi....no openings etc. If I see one under the price above, I start to think possible good deal.
Nothing wrong with having general pricing ideas in mind. It is incorrect to assume there are zero price guides or general preconceptions. And of course the above changes depending on where you are. Prices in Europe vs USA vs Australia are all very different. That's why we study and watch our own markets carefully.

[Brian]

Mark,
The corollary is that that high end swords aren't posted because a place starts to become bodded down with mediocre stuff with everyone fawning over out of polish mass produced stuff. I know many that won't share good stuff because they get less praise than a mumei osuriage tired wakizashi blade barely showing a hamon. My own collection is low end. But I know that, and don't get offended when some of it is pointed out.
There has to be a middle ground.

[Deiro]

I normally just lurk around but yeah this condescending behavior is wrong, it drives people away. If we scale up this rhetoric, they in turn are small fry to those in Japan who own national treasures. Such a person could say:
"A juyo simply failed to become a kokuho because it was not good enough, thus they are not worth owning." 
If this fails to convey why it is wrong I have no idea what to say. If they collect nihonto and appreciate the culture they should atleast have some tatamae.

Well going at the actual naginata in question, would I buy it? Nope perhaps I would be tempted if I were to see it in hand whether I myself like it, I just never considered getting a naginata.
As far as I see it is not rubbish but it is not special either, it got the hozon papers for a reason. I see these blades as once weapons and now art so my view might possibly invite disdain.

[Alex A]

You make a good point Jarrow. 

 

Got the odd person here bragging they have seen 200 swords in hand and readily gives out harsh opinion.

 

My thought when reading such a comment was when you have seen thousands of swords in hand and had TIME to study them well, then il listen.  

 

Spoke with a Japanese dealer that has such experience, very humble and unopinionated.  Favorite sword being a sentimental tanto of no special value.

 

A vast number of swords out there can be described as mediocre, for me the VAST majority. Lets not be too harsh.

 

[Deiro]

I'd too aspire to own masterpieces but there's no such reality for me. I am still a novice and besides when I look for the top my perfectionism will get ahold of me and it will never be enough.
 

Quote

Favorite sword being a sentimental tanto of no special value.

sentiment is at times far stronger than reason, it could've been his first, a gift from a late friend or inherited. These blades have more value because you're more than just its curator. The blades my ancestors had were probably exported low grade works, probably now laying somewhere in the bay of tokyo. But if I could have them I would.

[Mark S.]

49 minutes ago, Brian said:

There has to be a middle ground.

 

Oh I have some ideas… but as discretion is the better part of valor, I will keep them to myself as this is your home and I respect the fact you have a hard enough time herding us cats… 

[Alex A]

Agree Jarrow.

 

He stated it is a tanto that holds the most memories, only worth 50000 Y. Intends to pass it on.

 

I guess sentimental value is the reason many swords are still with us.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

4 hours ago, Alex A said:

Could you be more specific?, bit confused by the question?

 

You think its too expensive?, too cheap? or maybe the price is right?

I don't know if the price is right, I haven't had the blade in hands (you do it). Having said that, I know Tsuruta san well and I know that he has a personal interpretation of the condition of the blades: he says this one to be in good condition, for me it's a red flag.

 

Quote

Got the odd person here bragging they have seen 200 swords in hand and readily gives out harsh opinion.

I've had many more in my hands, but it took me 200 to understand the difference between art and simple craftsmanship.

[Alex A]

Well Jacques, here in the UK doubt there is any papered, signed, in polish naginata for that price.

 

Hence the title.

 

Actually, cant remember seeing many Naginata here at all.

 

I'm not big on Naginata but if i wanted one, this would do.  Someone mentioned it may have been a woman's Naginata, that i find makes it more interesting for some reason

 

Nothing wrong in aspiring to own quality items but at the same time nothing wrong in owning something just to satisfy ones curiosity for relatively low cost. All part of the journey.

 

Horses for courses.

[John C]

5 hours ago, Mark S. said:

I’ll be honest… it is a reason I don’t post too many of my blades just for fun anymore.  I truly hope no one else is made to feel this way… it’s just me.

Not just you. While I have posted some individual parts of swords for interpretation or translation, I haven't posted any just for fun. I learned my lesson when I posted my first one and it was labeled a "turd". On a fixed income, I don't have the means to purchase and post an "acceptable" sword. But I do try to learn everyday.

 

John C.

[Jacques D.]

Quote

here in the UK doubt there is any papered, signed, in polish naginata for that price.

 

This is not an argument

[Alex A]

Actually Jacques. It is if  you are on a budget and want a reasonably priced Naginata, which is what the title states.

 

Desperate Nit-picking as always.

 

About time this thread was locked or even better deleted.

 

Brian, if i were you i would stop worrying about how to keep the elitists happy and be more worried about paying members that are wondering why they are paying to be trolled..

 

Real high flyers don't come here, unless they want quick advice. The ones i have met have no interest in long term study.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

Quote

For the money, think its very good value.

Back to this sentence, how can you say what you say without having had the blade in hand and the necessary knowledge?  You assume things you don't know and then accuse your opponents of being trolls? It's the world upside down. 

[Alex A]

Jacques, the pictures are adequate enough for me to make a judgement on a low price £1200 sword.

 

 

Now **** off.