Antique or Modern Nihonto Katana

[EmmaNZ]

Hi all,

 

I’m hoping for some advice about a first sword that might be the start of a collection or might be a one-sword collection. I’ve been looking at some gorgeous antique blades, a couple of which I recently saw in person on a trip to Japan. But I also saw an incredible newly forged Kunihira Kawachi sword and I’m curious what others here (who have way more expertise than I do) might choose in this situation. I’m lucky to have a significant budget, and was looking at antiques like these:

 

http://world.seiyudo...m/product/ka-030524/

 

https://www.aoijapan...23/23003koshirae.jpg

[lonely panet]

well i can say a few things from my personal experience,  Seiyudo is your best choice of the 2.  very upper end but when i visited there store some years ago all i saw was 1st class.

 

the lower dealer. hmmmm watch what you buy.  that koshirae has been adjusted and fiddled with,  and i think isnt antique at all but a marriage of parts,  with new laquer or saya.

 

just my 2 cents word.

 

as too the hizen-to,  there are memebers here very educated on them and can offer valuable adivice, as its very expensive sword.  up in the juyo area

[EmmaNZ]

Thanks. Yeah I visited Seiyudo a couple week back and was very impressed. And I appreciate the warning about the other dealer.

[Katsujinken]

If your budget is $50k USD I strongly urge you to work directly with a dealer who specializes in the upper end of the market, like Mike Yamasaki. 
 

Ginza Seiyudo is a great shop, but you will definitely be paying maximum retail prices there. 
 

With your budget you could/should be buying a Juyo blade, even if you don’t want something older than Shinto. 
 

I was also just in Japan and saw a wonderful Juyo (long and signed!) Bizen Motoshige, with koshirae, for under $50k USD. I also saw a very nice TH Awataguchi (mumei), with nice tachi koshirae, for just over $30k. 

Given your budget I urge you to have patience and work directly with someone like Mike. 

[EmmaNZ]

Thanks. Yeah I’m in no hurry except perhaps for the newly forged Kunihira Kawachi, which is in the same price range and I know has some other potentially interested buyers.

[Nihonto student]

 

you are comparing completely different works and eras so, if there is no rush, I would take some time to delve deeper into the topic and as Michael said perhaps rely on an expert who can best guide you. Talking about Top notch from an investment point of view imho a Koto sword will always have more appeal and solid market than a new blade.
Seyundo's Tadayoshi is magnificent... but if you buy from them you have to forget the word investment.

 

Regards,

Giordy

[Natichu]

While I don't have much to add as a beginner myself, I will say that the recommendation above to work with Mike Yamasaki is an excellent one. He's been working with me on acquiring a first piece, and I cannot speak highly enough of him or my experiences with him.

 

For someone looking to start with a juyo-grade piece, I think that would be a stellar place to start. 

 

-Nathaniel 

[Jacques]

It's incredible that people are prepared to pay a fortune for something they know nothing about.

[Alex A]

As always Eva, buy a book first.

 

Don't let others choose for you as you wont appreciate what you have.

[Rivkin]

Very hard to give advice. I would say - go to Tokyo around DTI time, or just go there anytime and crawl through shops for a week.

Maybe add couple of provincial shops - they do have better bargains as the rule.

Then ask around here about what you liked the best. 

Unfortunately at this price level offerings in the US are more limited.

Enjoy the weak yen.

[EmmaNZ]

Thanks for the response. I’m buying this as art and certainly wouldn’t buy something I don’t love. I was curious about others opinions but it also isn’t the case I don’t k ow anything about Nihonto. I’ve lived in Japan and have long been interested in an antique sword, but back when I lived there the price for even a comparatively inexpensive authentic sword was well beyond my reach.
 

I mainly asked this forum for opinion because I was surprised how drawn I was to the Kawachi sword I saw on a recent trip — I always figured if I was buying a sword, especially in my price range (which I understand and acknowledge feels like a fortune to some, but for me I’ve been lucky enough to work my way to a place where it isn’t an unreasonable price for a beautiful piece of art and possibly history, depending on what route I go), I’d be only consider a pre-Shinto era blade.

 

I’m not really concerned about investing — hopefully whatever I buy will be a heirloom piece. But I also don’t want to overpay and be in a situation where I’d lose a ton if I did eventually want to sell for some reason. I certainly don’t have nearly the knowledge base of many folks here, but I’m not completely new to this world! 

[Rivkin]

Unless you have an established and well defined taste chances are you will not like even something that looked good to you in pictures. and vice versa. It takes learning to know how to navigate between these worlds.

In the US the best dealer will show you maybe 5 blades at once in this price range. In Japan you could see 50.

There is usually no rush so feel free to ask after making selection. With modern you are expected to loose some since they don't appreciate and if you buy from top-level store anything below 100K its also unlikely to be a great deal.

[EmmaNZ]

22 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Unless you have an established and well defined taste chances are you will not like even something that looked good to you in pictures. and vice versa. It takes learning to know how to navigate between these worlds.

In the US the best dealer will show you maybe 5 blades at once in this price range. In Japan you could see 50.

There is usually no rush so feel free to ask after making selection. With modern you are expected to loose some since they don't appreciate and if you buy from top-level store anything below 100K its also unlikely to be a great deal.

 

I was recently in Japan and viewed quite a few swords, but it wasn’t a purely sword-shopping trip so I wasn’t able to spend days on end in stores. I do at least have a good sense of what I’m interested in from an aesthetics perspective, but I’m always happy to learn from others who are more knowledgeable (including folks on this forum) I certainly appreciate the advice I’ve received here and I’ll definitely post again before I make any purchase. Who knows, maybe I’ll blow up my budget and look at something like this:

 

https://nihonto.com/111223/

[Alex A]

If you want “art”, buy a Shinsakuto

 

You want a sword as it was made, without wear.

 

Thats just my opinion

[Rivkin]

Personally I don't like Fred's photographs, which I guess is mutual, but if that's the sword I've seen in hand (95% certainty), its very good.

It has exceptional utsuri, ashi, lots of activity. One of the best Kunitoshi probably. It is not suguha+jigane kind of sword though, its very Kamakura in every aspect.

[Alex A]

One more thing.

 

Just because you can does not mean you need to go out and spend a fortune (for most) on your first sword.

 

Can get great swords for a lot less.

 

Hell, buy a few cheaper swords, 5 or so, learn a bit

 

Then buy the big one.

 

Guarantee you will appreciate it more

[Nihonto student]

Dear Eva,

 

I would like to express the concept in another form. Your post can be summarized as: "I would like to buy a painting but I don't know whether to buy a Da Vinci, Van Gogh, Monet or Picasso. Based on this the discussion can evolve wildly because at this level many considerations can (Must) be made... but in the end no one can tell you what to buy because it is a personal taste... considerations can be made on the price of a blade whether it is in line with the market or less, or that one artist has more appeal on the market for certain reasons than another... the fact remains that this forum has first of all an educational purpose, therefore as suggested the main advice remains to deepen the study in so that you can develop your personal knowledge and personal taste to better direct your choices, relying on a professional as well as participating in meetings of enthusiasts will certainly speed up your learning curve.

 

All the best,

Giordy

[Robert S]

I tend to agree with Alex:  Buy something cheaper as a learning process.  Even better, in my opinion, buy something very cheap, without papers, in decent but not great condition, but which appeals to you aestheticly.  You can then have enormous fund with a) the learning process, as you try to figure out what you have, b) getting it polished, if necessary, and C) sending if for shinsa if you think it merits it (and discovering how wrong (or right) you were in your initial guesses and subsequent learning). 

 

My first post on this site about my first sword was full of an embarrassing number of errors, but the much more knowledgeable folks on this sight got me headed in a better direction.  Like you, I could afford a much higher priced sword, but it would come without the mystery and learning process (both about swords and about polishing, shinsa, etc.).  I may have bought something which turns out to have little merit at the end of the day, but for the $1,100 I paid i have already gotten several times that price in learning and enjoyment, so I figure the real price of the sword at this point is zero... and I still love it.

 

One approach...

 

Robert S.

[EmmaNZ]

8 hours ago, Nihonto student said:

Dear Eva,

 

I would like to express the concept in another form. Your post can be summarized as: "I would like to buy a painting but I don't know whether to buy a Da Vinci, Van Gogh, Monet or Picasso. Based on this the discussion can evolve wildly because at this level many considerations can (Must) be made... but in the end no one can tell you what to buy because it is a personal taste... considerations can be made on the price of a blade whether it is in line with the market or less, or that one artist has more appeal on the market for certain reasons than another... the fact remains that this forum has first of all an educational purpose, therefore as suggested the main advice remains to deepen the study in so that you can develop your personal knowledge and personal taste to better direct your choices, relying on a professional as well as participating in meetings of enthusiasts will certainly speed up your learning curve.

 

All the best,

Giordy

Thanks, Giordy. That’s a great analogy.  I find I'm drawn to certain swords but there’s not necessarily a lot of commonality between them. I’m not sure that will matter all that much if I wind up with a “collection” that’s just one sword I love — it’s not likely I’m going to start a large collection of Nihonto. But I do want to make sure if I wind up making such a significant purchase I’m not getting fleeced!

[jawob]

Simple advice from someone who is not in your financial position: Buy the best historically significant example you can find. I would study katana in your price range and find a trusted dealer to help in your quest

[oli]

Hi Eva,

 

what are you doing with the katana after your bought it?

 

Regards

Oli

[Nihonto student]

1 hour ago, EmmaNZ said:

Thanks, Giordy. That’s a great analogy.  I find I'm drawn to certain swords but there’s not necessarily a lot of commonality between them. I’m not sure that will matter all that much if I wind up with a “collection” that’s just one sword I love — it’s not likely I’m going to start a large collection of Nihonto. But I do want to make sure if I wind up making such a significant purchase I’m not getting fleeced!

The concept of "like" is relative... I too, like many others in the forum, like blades that are stylistically different and from different eras, but you have to know how to evaluate, if we're talking about a purchase over 50k (Even if it were over 10k) this must be justified and at this moment you don't have the knowledge to make an evaluation...so the ways to avoid being cheated are:
- study and perhaps start with some medium level pieces as suggested by many
- If you don't want to wait you have to rely on someone to guide you and make the necessary assessments for you

In any case, take your time, there are always blades on sale...

Giordy

[Gakusee]

May I recommend that perhaps we analyse a bit our likes / dislikes and what draws us to a sword in terms of some principal characteristics:

- shape (do we like dainty, elegant swords or large, macho blades with okissaki; what kind of sori; what about niku/ shinogi/ horimono etc)

- hamon (quieter vs exuberant, suguha vs midare, nie based vs nioi based, sareru or more shimiba, wider nioiguchi or tigher, presence of hataraki or absence) 

- jigane (clearer or with utsuri, tight vs larger, jihada - masame/mokume/itame etc etc, do we want lots of konie and chikei or not)

- degree of preservation (state of blade, state of nakago eg mei or lack, etc)

- other perks and elements that are nice to have (certain certificate level, provenance, koshirae, obvious signs of usage such as tameshimei or kirikomi)

 

Once we are more structured in the approach to what draws us to a sword then we can discuss more pertinently what to do. 
 

The recommendation to keep going to Japan to see the most/best is a great one. Failing that, of course for a buyer based in the US working with someone like Fred or Mike or Ray Singer etc would be the way forward at high level. 

[Franco]

59 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

- shape (do we like dainty, elegant swords or large, macho blades with okissaki; what kind of sori; what about niku/ shinogi/ horimono etc)

- hamon (quieter vs exuberant, suguha vs midare, nie based vs nioi based, sareru or more shimiba, wider nioiguchi or tigher, presence of hataraki or absence) 

- jigane (clearer or with utsuri, tight vs larger, jihada - masame/mokume/itame etc etc, do we want lots of konie and chikei or not)

- degree of preservation (state of blade, state of nakago eg mei or lack, etc)

- other perks and elements that are nice to have (certain certificate level, provenance, koshirae, obvious signs of usage such as tameshimei or kirikomi)

 

Time period?

Smith rating? How many Juyo + by the smith? Historical background?

Sharpness rating?

Tradition? Mainline (Yamato, Bizen, Yamashiro, Soshu, Mino) ?

School? Smith? Den? Signed? Dated? Ubu? Shortened? Reshaped? Machi o-kuri?

Polish?

Flaws?

 

Kantei:

Does everyone agree about who made this sword and on the quality?

Is this sword an example of the smith's best work? How do you know?

How many swords by the smith have you seen/studied?

 

 

Koshirae? Quality?

 

Homework.

 

Buy what you like, but know what you're buying.

 

Regards

[EmmaNZ]

4 hours ago, oli said:

Hi Eva,

 

what are you doing with the katana after your bought it?

 

Regards

Oli

Just displaying it -- likely in my home office where I'll be able to see and enjoy it every day.  Nihonto represent many of the things I love about Japanese culture -- desire for excellence, precision and attention to detail, respect for the country's history, appreciation for simple elegance.

[oli]

5 hours ago, EmmaNZ said:

Just displaying it -- likely in my home office where I'll be able to see and enjoy it every day.  Nihonto represent many of the things I love about Japanese culture -- desire for excellence, precision and attention to detail, respect for the country's history, appreciation for simple elegance.

 

So where is no need to have to pay so much money for this usecase. Personally i would study this sword and don't only display it. It would be a waste to have a so high level sword only for display.  

[lonely panet]

If you got alot of disposable money, like your a billionaire. Go for it. Just make sure no one's going touch or handle it disrespectfully. . And it won't devalue. 

 

After all its your money, or choice.

 

Ps if you are a billionaire, you could hire me to help you travel the globe in the hunt

[EmmaNZ]

11 hours ago, oli said:

 

So where is no need to have to pay so much money for this usecase. Personally i would study this sword and don't only display it. It would be a waste to have a so high level sword only for display.  

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “study,” but I’d certainly take the time to learn all the details of a sword I purchase, though I doubt I’ll ever have time to make this a true hobby and gain the level of expertise that many here have. I just meant whatever I purchase will primarily be an art object, not that I won’t learn more about its historical significance! 
 

 

[oli]

36 minutes ago, EmmaNZ said:

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “study,” but I’d certainly take the time to learn all the details of a sword I purchase, though I doubt I’ll ever have time to make this a true hobby and gain the level of expertise that many here have. I just meant whatever I purchase will primarily be an art object, not that I won’t learn more about its historical significance! 
 

 

sorry i am not a native english speaker/writer, only use it for my IT job. To study i mean, learn more about the smith, the school, the time he made it and compare with other smiths, school, time. To learn the historical significance you have to invest time, what you don't wont. 

And please don't forget to maintain and take care of the sword, if you buy one of this rare and expensive one. 

 

[EmmaNZ]

11 hours ago, lonely panet said:

If you got alot of disposable money, like your a billionaire. Go for it. Just make sure no one's going touch or handle it disrespectfully. . And it won't devalue. 

 

After all its your money, or choice.

 

Ps if you are a billionaire, you could hire me to help you travel the globe in the hunt

Ha, I'm a long way from being a billionaire unfortunately.  I don't have this kind of money to just throw around on a daily basis.  A genuine Nihonto is something I've been interested in owning for years, long before I had the means to even consider buying one.  That's maybe why I didn't gain a ton of knowledge about Nihonto in the past -- for years it felt like something that'd never be attainable and learning more would just stoke my desire for something I couldn't have.  

 

I absolutely will make sure that anything I purchase is cared for correctly and handled only with the utmost respect.