O-Suriage blade w/hi in gunto mounts, advice please.

[Tcat]

Greetings all,

 

I would appreciate any information people can suggest about this blade. No papers.

Steel appears quite dark and hada seems fairly active and prominent... I think it is koto, I think originally a tachi.

Can anyone narrow down the period, smith?

Nagasa is 24 inches..

[Tcat]

Sugata

[Mark]

maybe suekoto Shimada

[Mark]

or suekoto Shitahara

[sanjuro]

Alex.

 

Can I ask a silly question? What in particular leads you to believe this is O suriage? From the photos at least, this seems to be a bit of a leap in assumption. Like I say, this may be a silly question but you dont get answers unless you ask one or two occasionally. :?

[Jean]

This sword seems to come from Eric Molinier's website, even if not listed anymore, this kind of pictures directly copied from Darcy's ones leave no doubt:

 

http://www.owazamono.com/Swords.html

 

Question : What was the description given for this blade?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Can we see the whole nakago without habaki please? This sword doesn't seem suriage.

[Gunome]

Hi Jacques,

 

  Jacques D. said:

Hi,

Can we see the whole nakago without habaki please? This sword doesn't seem suriage.

 

I may be wrong, but I disagree with you. Based on the bo hi on the nakago different on both side, yasurime seems to be kiri, and nakago jiri looks kiri with square cut off to roundish its, for me this sword looks like O suriage.

 

Sebastien

[Tcat]

Thanks to all for the quick responses.

 

To clarify...these pictures were indeed taken by Eric M. but I do not believe they were ever up on his website.

My memory of the exact details are hazy but I think that the blade was sold on consignment.

 

Jean, it was listed as an O-Suriage blade, c.1350 so I am basing my assumptions on the listing info.

 

The reason I bring this to the board is that a few people have looked at this with varying opinions (which is interesting for me because I am trying to learn from this blade); what I would really like is to know what it is about the features that lead people to their conclusions.

 

Mark, you are not the first person to guess suekoto but the first to bring up Shimada and Shitahara. A while ago I took the suekoto suggestion back to Eric but he didnt agree.

 

Just want to say - I dont want to cause any friction by asking for people's opinions.. One of the things I find most interesting about sword study are the varying opinions about blades and how these conclusions were reached. For a beginner like me I think it is pretty vital to be exposed to differing viewpoints and the reasoning behind them. I really appreciate anything that the knowledgable people on this forum have to offer.

 

I do not have this sword to hand so can not take more pictures sans habaki at this time - but I could do so next week if you good folks are still interested.

 

Many thanks!

[Jean]

Alex,

 

If I take into account your first picture and have alook at the nakago jiri, I'll tend to agree with the Suriage hypothesis.

 

Remember what I wrote you yesterday in reply to your post in the new member presentation :lol: :lol:

[Guido]

It certainly looks like a nicely done Keichô-suriage of a Kotô blade to my untrained eyes.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

The groove on the omote side makes me uncomfortable, it looks like kaki-nagashi and in case of O-suriage we should see a mekugi-ana lower than those we see.

 

I would like to see that blade without habaki and know its mesureaments, kasane etc....

[Tcat]

  Jean said:

Remember what I wrote you yesterday in reply to your post in the new member presentation :lol: :lol:

haha! Jean, it certainly didnt take long huh?

I really appreciate that people are willing to offer their insight! Great to see learned folk contributing, all of whom I have read much from in the past.

  Jacques D. said:

I would like to see that blade without habaki and know its mesurements, kasane etc....

Jacques, I will be very happy to provide these but don't have the sword to hand right now - they will be up here within a couple weeks so please watch this space!

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

Here too, looking forward to seeing what careful measurements and pics of mune/kissaki/boshi might reveal. Quick thoughts, I'm thinking that these bo hi might have been added sometime later in this sword's existence, quite possibly at the same time the nakago would have been reshaped (Keichô-suriage, as Guido observed). Either that, or perhaps we're viewing a good Koto copy, hmm. All things that should be more properly considered with sword in hand of course. Is there a shinsa in this sword's future?

[Mark]

It is almost impossible to be exact from pictures. I would want to hold the blade before trying to make a kantei opinion. I said Shitahara as i had an unsigned blade with noticable pools of mokume spaced along the blade just below the shinogi. the NBTHK judged it as Shitahara and gave it to an individual. that school worked in 14-1500's. After getting it back i found that was book descriptions matched the work in my sword, so i learned something. Your blade seemed to have similar traits, so that was a guess.

[Guido]

I believe the Hi are original, and the different lengths in the Nakago are actually quite common on (Ô)Suriage swords. When a blade is shortened, an entire or partial new Nakago has to be shaped. This can obviously done by filing both flat sides down to a taper, or only (or mostly) one side; the latter method is prefered when an existing signature has to be preserved on the opposite side, but is (in my experience) the most often used method regardless of the concern for a Mei anyhow.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

  Quote

I believe the Hi are original, and the different lengths in the Nakago are actually quite common on (Ô)Suriage swords

 

In this case, and if the original mekugi-ana is below the omote hi, if you try to reconstitute the original nakago, that makes the ura hi ending upper the habaki and i have never seen a groove ending like this on a toshin (we do not forget the mune was filed to shape the new nakago and move up the machi and on the ubu blade it will make the end of this groove very unsightly).

 

 

Sorry for my poor english :?

[Ted Tenold]

The ends of the bohi terminate before (or nearly at, hard to tell from the image) the yokote and don't extend into the koshinogi. This indicates they are atobori. However, there's nothing to say that the suriage was done even after the bohi were installed.

 

This is what I believe we're seeing; two (or more) subsequent alterations.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

  Quote

The ends of the bohi terminate before (or nearly at, hard to tell from the image) the yokote and don't extend into the koshinogi. This indicates they are atobori

 

 

Kissaki-sagari bo-hi can be seen on many blades such those of Mino Kanefusa, Nanki Shigekuni, Osafune Katsumitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. They don't indicate ato-bori.

[Ted Tenold]

  Jacques D. said:

Kissaki-sagari bo-hi can be seen on many blades such those of Mino Kanefusa, Nanki Shigekuni, Osafune Katsumitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. They don't indicate ato-bori.

 

Thanks for that Jacques, but unless one of those smiths (or some other exception) made this sword, then your point is fairly moot.

 

Perhaps my statement was a bit too concrete. I will revise it for clarity as I wrote it this morning in somewhat of a rush. How about.....

 

  Ted Tenold said:

The ends of the bohi terminate before (or nearly at, hard to tell from the image) the yokote and don't extend into the koshinogi. On a Koto period work, this can indicate they may indeed be atobori. However, there's nothing to say that the suriage wasn't performed even after the bohi had been installed.

 

This is what I believe we're seeing; two (or more) subsequent alterations.

 

Better? :|

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

  Quote

On a Koto period work, this can indicate they may indeed be atobori.

 

 

On a shinto blade too

[Brian]

  Guido Schiller said:

I believe the Hi are original, and the different lengths in the Nakago are actually quite common on (Ô)Suriage swords. When a blade is shortened, an entire or partial new Nakago has to be shaped. This can obviously done by filing both flat sides down to a taper, or only (or mostly) one side; the latter method is prefered when an existing signature has to be preserved on the opposite side, but is (in my experience) the most often used method regardless of the concern for a Mei anyhow.

Thanks Guido, for those wanting to know more, we have a good article illustrating this in our articles section.

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Suriage.pdf

 

Brian

[reinhard]

You all better return to the blade in question. It looks quite interesting.

 

Why not installing a particular sand-box for Monsieur Jacques and his particular problem. A sub-forum named: "Fight the book-worm who never leaves its premises" might do.

 

reinhard

[Guido]

After "the other post" was pulled, here's another pic from his childhood:

[Brian]

Perhaps this one is more appropriate :|

 

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Reinhardt and Guido you are the living proof that intelligence and knowledge are two things entirely different.

 

If i'm wrong (and you too) that is always possible, to explain why would be better than being sarcastic.

 

I will for now shut my loudmouth and keep my thoughts for myself.

[Brian]

..and now, since this isn't a game of "who gets the last word?" I am warning clearly that any further comments not related to the sword itself will simply be deleted. Better for the rest of us readers than locking an interesting topic.

 

Brian

[Tcat]

To all who have posted, many thanks. I am here to learn and am flattered and grateful that you guys are willing to give your time to this, I just hope the back and forths are tongue in cheek (or mostly)! :lol:

 

This evening (UK time) I will upload some more pics and precise measurements..

 

Just want to comment on a few posts first:

 

  Mark said:

I said Shitahara as i had an unsigned blade with noticable pools of mokume spaced along the blade just below the shinogi. the NBTHK judged it as Shitahara and gave it to an individual. that school worked in 14-1500's. After getting it back i found that was book descriptions matched the work in my sword, so i learned something.

Thanks Mark... This is interesting and seems to give a some backing to the possibility of the blade being sue-koto...

 

  Guido Schiller said:

I believe the Hi are original, and the different lengths in the Nakago are actually quite common on (Ô)Suriage swords. When a blade is shortened, an entire or partial new Nakago has to be shaped. This can obviously done by filing both flat sides down to a taper, or only (or mostly) one side; the latter method is prefered when an existing signature has to be preserved on the opposite side, but is (in my experience) the most often used method regardless of the concern for a Mei anyhow.

Many thanks Guido. I had thought (with my unttrained eyes) this sword was O-Suriage partially thanks to the article by Nakahara (thanks for the translation Paul!) linked in here by Brian. I had read that article here on NMB previously; the diagram at the bottom is part of why I chose to acquire this sword - based on how the hi appear on the nakago after reshaping...

(Yes - this is probably quite a n00by approach but I was looking for a genuine koto blade with an obvious coarse "old style" hada... the look of the nakago and the hi made me think o-suriage before I saw Eric's description of the blade and it just seemed like it have a story to tell...yeah, n00by and romantic I know...)

 

  reinhard said:

...the blade in question. It looks quite interesting.

Thanks reinhard.. what are your thoughts?

 

  Ted Tenold said:

The ends of the bohi terminate before (or nearly at, hard to tell from the image) the yokote and don't extend into the koshinogi. This indicates they are atobori. However, there's nothing to say that the suriage was done even after the bohi were installed.

 

This is what I believe we're seeing; two (or more) subsequent alterations.

Ted, this is very interesting....what might the "(or more)" be?

 

  Jacques D. said:

Kissaki-sagari bo-hi can be seen on many blades such those of Mino Kanefusa, Nanki Shigekuni, Osafune Katsumitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. They don't indicate ato-bori.

  Ted Tenold said:

Thanks for that Jacques, but unless one of those smiths (or some other exception) made this sword, then your point is fairly moot.

Is there a chance that this sword could indeed have been made by one of these smiths or is this pretty unlikey? Also, are there any lesser known schools or smiths people are aware of that also made swords with Kissaki-sagari bo hi? Is this a rule with exceptions?

 

Guido...would you be willing to comment on the atobori theory?

 

Ted, being a craftsman perhaps you can shed light onto the reason atobori hi stop at the yokote and are not cut further into the kissaki? I was always under the impression that hi are always carved after a sword is completed - Does the hi carving occur before heat treatment if the hi are original?

 

  Jacques D. said:

I will for now shut my loudmouth and keep my thoughts for myself.

Jacques, please dont keep your mouth shut if you have any other info or ideas about this sword..!

 

Come now guys, no more ad hominem attacks - theories are fair game however!!

Sorry I keep saying this but Im trying to learn here so need explanations/reasoning as to why one theory is more likely to be correct than another!

 

New pics (motohaba, mune, kissaki, hi etc) and pertinent measurements coming very shortly...stay tuned!

[John A Stuart]

Here are my thoughts on this sword. The date given by the seller is interesting in that he attributes nothing other than the date. Why, I wonder? However I do find it a reasonable date. I do not believe this is a sue-Koto sword. We are dealing with pics, but, I think the jihada is a coarse mokume going to ohada in places. The hamon is gunome midare and I do see togariba. It has kakinagashi katachiri bobi that are kissakisagaru. Kissakisagaru are very common in these times and do not indicate atobori. All this makes me feel the sword fits within the definition of Naoe Shizu Ha, Nambokucho, by some one like Kanetomo, Kanetoshi, Kanehisa, Kanenobu or Kanetsugu. Of course my opinion may change as more pics show better detail. John

[Tcat]

  John A Stuart said:

It has kakinagashi katachiri bobi that are kissakisagaru. Kissakisagaru are very common in these times and do not indicate atobori. All this makes me feel the sword fits within the definition of Naoe Shizu Ha, Nambokucho, by some one like Kanetomo, Kanetoshi, Kanehisa, Kanenobu or Kanetsugu. Of course my opinion may change as more pics show better detail. John

John, many thanks for this, and also for the info and oshigata on your website.

 

Can anyone tell me the reason why people might assume kissakisagaru bohi are atobori?

 

Please see attached pics.

 

Measurements are as follows:

 

motohaba 29.2mm

sakihaba 22.3mm

motokasane 7.3mm

sakikasane 5.2mm

nakago 158mm

kissaki (measured from yokote) 41mm