My first nihinto.

[Americankyzen22]

Oh interesting I will most likely get the papers when the sword comes in 

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

Unfortunately, this kind of registration document (銃砲刀剣登録証 or even NBTHK papers)can be easily forged where I come from.

 

It's important to see the handwriting on it for Japanese Kanji have distinct differences from Chinese characters when handwritten. 

 

If it's not shown, there is something to speculate about it.

 

Also IMHO, the blade itself IS genuine, from the Kitaeware on Shinogiji.

 

That's a definite sign of traditional Nihonto smithing there.

 

But the Yakiba is really bad, way too stiff(as too consistent in a bad way), and has way too much Mura（ムラ or 叢） and Kuzure（崩れ）.

 

Combined with the very weird and uncalled-for Yakiotoshi(焼き落とし) and vaguely visible Yakidashi Uturi (焼出移, some would say Mizukage, 水影, but Nakahara Nobuo Sensei would argue they are not the same thing), this a Saiba（再刃）-ed Nihonto no doubt, probably done in China by a not traditionally trained person (there's none anyway, one person comes very close, though).

 

Most Saiba-ed Nihonto are considered with little artistic and market value, except for those historically significant museum collections.

 

I am terribly sorry for my long-winded and Japanese-word-dropping reply, Saiba is just an incredibly difficult topic and takes tremendous effort to explain even most slightly.  

I hope someone more knowledgeable would kindly correct me on this one.

[Bugyotsuji]

Most likely you won't. The blade needs to be deregistered under Japanese law, and the registration card (partly seen in the photo) needs to be surrendered to the authorities before leaving Japan.

 

It's nice to have though (a copy is good) as it shows how it was registered for the books, but it's not essential, only recording the length, number of mekugi holes in the nakago, etc. It tells you no interesting stuff otherwise, only that it was deemed by some educational committee as worth registering.

 

PS Just seen Baby Joe's reply, but the blade is Mumei, right?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Get a refund if possible, this is an absolute crapper worth a few hundred bucks at most.

[Americankyzen22]

45 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Get a refund if possible, this is an absolute crapper worth a few hundred bucks at most.

Can't get one there not accepted I think I'm gonna take the L on this and use it as a learing experience.

[Americankyzen22]

1 hour ago, YourBabyBjornBorg said:

Unfortunately, this kind of registration document (銃砲刀剣登録証 or even NBTHK papers)can be easily forged where I come from.

 

It's important to see the handwriting on it for Japanese Kanji have distinct differences from Chinese characters when handwritten. 

 

If it's not shown, there is something to speculate about it.

 

Also IMHO, the blade itself IS genuine, from the Kitaeware on Shinogiji.

 

That's a definite sign of traditional Nihonto smithing there.

 

But the Yakiba is really bad, way too stiff(as too consistent in a bad way), and has way too much Mura（ムラ or 叢） and Kuzure（崩れ）.

 

Combined with the very weird and uncalled-for Yakiotoshi(焼き落とし) and vaguely visible Yakidashi Uturi (焼出移, some would say Mizukage, 水影, but Nakahara Nobuo Sensei would argue they are not the same thing), this a Saiba（再刃）-ed Nihonto no doubt, probably done in China by a not traditionally trained person (there's none anyway, one person comes very close, though).

 

Most Saiba-ed Nihonto are considered with little artistic and market value, except for those historically significant museum collections.

 

I am terribly sorry for my long-winded and Japanese-word-dropping reply, Saiba is just an incredibly difficult topic and takes tremendous effort to explain even most slightly.  

I hope someone more knowledgeable would kindly correct me on this one.

I'm new to this so a short summery would be nice lol 

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

10 minutes ago, Americankyzen22 said:

I'm new to this so a short summery would be nice lol 

 

Sorry for the confusion, in short, I believe this is to be a genuine traditionally made Japanese sword (Nihonto), but re-hardened (Saiba-ed).

 

Re-hardened Nihonto generally have little value, so is this poorly re-hardened one.

 

some parts of the mounting are fine, but the handle wrapping is especially bad.

 

It's likely because it was burned once so the "Hamon" (not really, though) was annealed and gone, and the sword became a burnt blade (Yakimi/焼身).

 

(It could also be the tip of the sword was broken so a re-hardening is required.)

 

burnt blades are surprisingly more common than people would expect in the low-end Nihonto market.

 

A side note is that the Hamon is quite clearly off to any trained eyes, and it's not just because of the poor and acid-enhanced polishing.

 

So it leaves questions about whether the collector who sold you this blade is a trusting-worthing person or not, when it comes to Nihonto trading.

[Americankyzen22]

For what? I paid for the blade.

I should have expected all of thisf

 

[Americankyzen22]

Is there any way to fix this or is it necessary.

[Bugyotsuji]

My first blade, a wakizashi, cost me JPY 80,000 about 20 years ago. After a week I was bored with it and took it back to the shop. The Banto took it back and gave me 70,000; one of the customers who was watching quietly said that I was very lucky to get more than 30,000.

 

"They are throwing away their normal profit and giving you this special-favor deal in the expectation that you will upgrade", he added. 

 

Everything was new to me and I felt as though I had been thrown into a washing machine on full cycle.

 

Later I told a friend that I had lost 10,000 for nothing. He laughed and said, "You pay for the learning process. Think of it as 授業料 'jugyoryo' school fees! Now you are older and wiser, I hope!" he said, winking.

 

You could follow your own advice, bite the bullet and study or cross-check it with all the different opinions here, and then when you are finished and can see the whole picture, sell it on quietly and if possible without telling any lies! Once bitten, twice shy as they say. Maybe next time you can ask here in advance before making any decision to buy.

[Americankyzen22]

Well that's some good advice right there unfortunately for me there are no returns but I wonder if I talk to the seller before he ships it if I could maybe get something different,I'm kinda feeling like just keeping it and looking at it as a learning experience.

[Matsunoki]

12 minutes ago, Americankyzen22 said:

I'm kinda feeling like just keeping it and looking at it as a learning experience.

Josh, you’ve now already had the learning experience, you probably don’t need a reminder  so  if you could exchange the sword that’s what I would do…..provided you don’t jump out of the frying pan into the fire. Speaking from experience, getting rid of mistakes is very cathartic! I’d try speaking to the seller with fingers crossed. 

[Americankyzen22]

I think I'm gonna keep it I have no intentions of selling it and I made the decision and I'm gonna live with it.

[Robert S]

Speaking as the now "proud" owner of an acid etched blade :-), awaiting repolishing, that doesn't look like acid etching to me... but it is a distinctly odd hamon, although I don't have the expertise to say why.

[Jacques D.]

On 5/16/2024 at 8:21 PM, 2devnul said:

Fake samegawa? Can you explain why the statement?

 

 

[George KN]

@Americankyzen22 - I've just read this entire thread, and as a Nihonto noob myself, there were a lot of terms mentioned whilst discussing this sword that while very useful for research and are very factually correct, aren't always so easy to visualise and understand on first reading. So hopefully nobody minds giving my two pennies worth and some visual examples - but please correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, or begin showing too much of my own inexperience

Tsuka / Samegawa
 

Firstly, "Badly wrapped tsuka (handle)" and "Fake samegawa" (fake shark/ray skin underneath the material wrap) - here's two of my blades which I think illustrates what people are concerned about, the quality of the material just isn't great, and it isn't showing the amount of wear you would expect.

Here's a side-by-side example of a higher-quality tsuka (at least in my opinion) with your tsuka (note how smooth the material is):




And here's an example of a genuine, but very worn and cheaper version (I've read that sometimes the larger nodules on the ray skin were glued on in cheaper pieces, and I believe that they have since fallen off in my example):





From those two pictures you should be able to see why your own wrap doesn't seem to be made from top notch materials, but also is too clean to likely be an original older wrap.

Having a new or newish handle though certainly isn't the end of the world - after all, its a lot safer than having none, and you can always try and buy a better example down the road (although it can be a pain to find one that fits your sword).


Hamon / Polish

The concerns about the polish, retempering, and hamon are interesting. I am again no expert in this field, but it looks like your blade has two hamon lines:




There should only ever be one line here! I simply don't know enough to say much more on this, other than the retempering looks to have been done in a very different way from the original forging (hence the concerns about acid etching and oil tempering, which leave very different hamon lines to water tempering).

"...extensive hadaware in the shinogiji..." - this I believe refers to this part of the blade and all the lines up here:

 

Flaws in Japanese swords are known as kizu (https://www.Japanese...rdindex.com/kizu.htm), and this is a form of ware (I think anyway) - they are very common though, but I've not seen such an extensive amount in one place before (I wonder if the retempering has caused these to open or made them worse)?


Saya

 

I really don't know much about saya (sheaths), but the main concern seems to be over the loop, which you do see on certain wartime swords and tachi, but not on most katana:

 

It is worth mentioning though that like the tsuka, you can always have a new saya made.


Nakago

I actually like mumei swords a lot as a new collector - no need to worry about signatures being fake, and although I know little beyond that, I don't see anything that concerns me with yours - it looks genuine, and genuinely old to me. I've added the pictures you sent side by side with my two Nihonto just so you can compare the aging, file marks, ana (hole), and general wear (although obviously the brightness levels in the photos are a little different):

 

Conclusion

So what do I think? I think you've actually done better than I did when buying my first Nihonto! Yes, it's retempered and seems to have new fittings, but it at least looks real to me.

 

This was my first sword:

 

It *hurt* when I realised how badly I'd screwed up - and how little research I'd done before bidding on it.

But it taught me how little I knew about the subject, and it opened up a whole new world of knowledge which I am still just getting to grips with.

Hopefully that's some help?

 George


P.S. I'm sure you already know some of the above terms, but I'm aware it is not just us reading this, and I endeavour to make my posts accessible to future newcomers that also find these threads on Google

[Americankyzen22]

Thank you brother I really appreciate the positive outlook on the situation helps me cope with the situation alot better I feel like I made a good mistake,may I ask what was wrong with yours it looks gunto to me,was it not real?

[George KN]

Not real is an understatement really! You will never find genuine Nihonto with any big acid-etchings like that. Even the factory-made wartime blades look very different.

For example, here's a type 98 gunto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guntō), the vast majority of which were made non-traditionally, and look nothing like the sword I bought:



And here's a type 95, which is very much factory made, and has a serial number on, but it is stamped in (as in with a hammer), and again looks nothing like mine (be wary of buying these by the way, as there are a lot of fakes floating around):

 

Now there are definitely rougher late-war blades kicking around, some of which were made in China or Manchuria and others made on various islands outside of Japan, which can have wooden handles and are made to a much lower standard, but again the acid-etched stamp really does give it all away. (Useful link here: http://ohmura-study.net/900.html (Why do no Japanese sword sites seem to have working https? ))

Its also worth having a read through our own forum section on the wartime blades (if you haven't already!), as I've certainly learnt a lot from it: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/45-military-swords-of-Japan/

The real kicker is that you can find the same blade I bought sold in a billion other different places, all sharing the same serial number! We even have an old thread on this forum of them: 

If only I'd done any sort of reverse Google image search, or tried looking up that serial number before the auction, I'd have even then with my minimal knowledge have realised it was a trap. 


As a bit of a pallet cleanser though, and also to show the difference in quality - while you won't find acid-etchings on real Nihonto, you definitely can find carvings (horimono), which can be absolutely stunning: 

 

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

Oh, the two Hamon lines are because the clay applied on the blade before tempering fell off during quenching (Tsuchiochi/土落ち).

 

They are defects somewhat common on poorly made Nihonto and Nihonto-style swords.

 

 

[Irrelevant rumbling]

 

 

The method of applying clay is called Tsuchioki(土置き), it is to create a controlled Hamon.

 

 

[Even more irrelevant rumbling]

 

 

One can create glorious Hamon without Tsuchioki, for example, the Japanese Designated National Treasure sold for close to 4 million dollars, Sanchomo.

 

The modern Nihonto smith Sugita Yoshiaki San is also famous for his rediscovering this ancient technique called Hadaka-Yaki(naked tempering).

[Bugyotsuji]

Be aware of course that you can also sometimes find 二重刃 Nijuba, where the temper line can appear to be double.

 What is Nijūba in Japanese Katana terminology? (romanceofmen.com)

[YourBabyBjornBorg]

Yes, Nijuba are very common features in Nihonto, and kind of easy to be confused with Tsuchiochi's result.

 

From my very poor understanding of it, one way to tell is to look for signs of lack of control of the Hamon, for example, Mura (ムラ/叢) or Kuzure(崩れ),

 

Also, the rim of Hamon with Tsuchiochi tends to be jagged and irregular in an unappealing fashion, from my limited experience, indicating an unintentional mistake.

 

Still, many great Nie-Deki Nihonto have very irregular Hataraki (I prefer to call them Syosa/所作, though),

 

so I would lean heavily on the separated, jagged, and unappealing part, not the irregular part, to tell a Tsuchiochi from Nijuba.

 

In this particular case, I still get a strong feeling that this is a traditionally forged sword, retempered and oil-quenched, probably in China,

 

resulting in very poor control of Hamon with a thin, uncannily stiff and consistent Nioguchi,

 

like many other poorly made Chinese Japanese-style swords I have seen. 

[Americankyzen22]

So what you are saying is that the sword I have is made in China and the nakago has been aged to look old? Or is authentic but had its polish redone in China?

[Bugyotsuji]

Part of the fascination with Nihonto (Japanese swords) is that nothing is ever quite absolute. You may have to make your own case convincingly.

 

The fun is in the sleuthing, and there is plenty of detective work to be had, arriving at higher or lower levels of possibility. Like a crime that you solve using circumstantial evidence, you follow those little signs to a probable or even highly-probable conclusion, if you are lucky. Usually it takes time and patience and study, (you may even find that Eureka moment!) You'll need books, opinions, experience and sixth sense.

[Americankyzen22]

This is so true. I do have about 4 books right now.

That once I get the sword. I'mma do some more research.

[Brian]

Personally, I believe this to be a perfectly legit Japanese sword, just having undergone an acid polish that opened the steel and gave the hamon an artificial look. I think in this case, gentle uchiko cleaning over a long period would dial the acid look down a bit, and make it look a lot better. But uchiko work is strictly for very put of polish swords, and ones that are overdone like this. It is a very case-by-case basis.
But either way, I think it's a real sword and really not as terrible as any out there. Maybe oil quenched, I am not sure yet. I could be wrong of course. But it's not junk.

[Jacques D.]

 

[Abaris]

Looks like it.

[Brian]

Looks nothing like it.
You have a sword clearly showing acid polish, open ware in the shinogi ji that look exactly like hada that has opened from acid. A possible torokusho, old but low grade antique fittings. How are we seeing zebra?
Hamon would look like that if it was etched with ferric, possibly even oil quenched. It's a long stretch to a Hanwei sword imho.

[Abaris]

I thought oil tempered doesn't has hamon, just hada.

[Lee Bray]

Unlikely to be Hanwei as they tend to sign every sword with a lenghty 'Paul Chen/Hanwei, Dalien Province, etc' mei and have an angular kurijiri. Though of course, that could be altered to look more Nihonto like.

Carlos, oil and water can be used to create hamon on homogenous steel or folded steel. To qualify as a traditional blade, water is used with folded steel.