Feeling ashamed for a rust spot

[Jesse Luddington]

I recently purchased a modern (made in 2013) nihonto wakazashi from AOI art Japan. It had just been delivered when I had a family tragedy that I had to go home for, so I never even opened the package. About a month later of taking care of family stuff I finally got home and took out the wakazashi to clean and oil it. It has a very small fleck of brown rust (maybe red) just above the habaki. 

 

The blade was nicely oiled, on shirasaya, and tightly wrapped in bubble wrap in a sealed package. It makes me wonder if it was there before, during, or after transit. 

 

I guess this is more of a question type of post, but do any of you ever have a feeling of failure or shame if something similar has happened to you? I just feel sick that it was probably me not opening the package in time that caused a flake of rust, like I don't deserve the responsibility of caring for these swords. 

 

I have 4 other nihonto and have had them for almost 2 years. I have always maintained them and they are as beautiful now as when I got them. But this one speck of rust just makes me feel so bad.

 

Anyway, I appreciate all of the information and input on this forum. I don't post often but love this forum. I attached some pics of the blade for reference.

[SteveM]

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over this speck.

I think a lot of us used to use prodigious amounts of uchiko "back in the day", and then wiped it off with washi paper. We all thought that was the proper form of care and maintenance of the blade. And the sword shops gave us those great "sword maintenance" kits that had the uchiko balls and the paper and everything. So of course we're going to use them. Anyway, I regret all that uchiko I put on my swords. I don't think I ruined the swords, but none of it enhanced the swords any. So...some slight guilt, but I reckon we've all had those moments.

 

 

[Brian]

Spots like that are usually/often the result of chatting while examining a sword. 1 Little spot of saliva lands on the sword, that's the result. Professional sword guys in Japan make you hold a piece of paper in your lips while examining a sword, for that very reason.

[ROKUJURO]

Jesse,

this does not look like a desaster for your WAKIZASHI (not wakazashi), but whatever caused this, you will have to deal with it. If it were mine, I would try to get rid of the loose rust by carefully scraping it away with a very pointed splinter of antler or bone. Do not treat the steel around this spot, just the red rust. Afterwards you can try to remove what remains of this spot with UCHIKO. Just once, not daily! And after that, a tiny bit of oil, but take care that nothing of it goes into the SAYA.

I don't think you should do much more at the moment. In case you had a traditionally trained TOGISHI around the corner, that would be the best way of course!

[Grevedk]

Hi Jesse,

I can personally relate to both yours and Steve’s sentiments. I also believe that regret and / or some anxiety in regard to care automatically will follow any respectful and serious collector of Nihonto (or any antique item - for that matter) who puts on the mantle of custodian. That speck by the way would only have turned into a problem if you haven’t looked or cared - which you did 😎👍And I would guess it’s already gone…

 

All the best

 

/Soren

[Jesse Luddington]

2 hours ago, SteveM said:

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over this speck.

I think a lot of us used to use prodigious amounts of uchiko "back in the day", and then wiped it off with washi paper. We all thought that was the proper form of care and maintenance of the blade. And the sword shops gave us those great "sword maintenance" kits that had the uchiko balls and the paper and everything. So of course we're going to use them. Anyway, I regret all that uchiko I put on my swords. I don't think I ruined the swords, but none of it enhanced the swords any. So...some slight guilt, but I reckon we've all had those moments.

 

 

Thank you for your reply, it's comforting to know that even very experienced collectors have some things that might bug them. But I'm grateful for all your experience that has been recorded on this forum, because it has been such a source of knowledge for me even long before I even acquired my first nihonto.  So thank you!

[Jesse Luddington]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Spots like that are usually/often the result of chatting while examining a sword. 1 Little spot of saliva lands on the sword, that's the result. Professional sword guys in Japan make you hold a piece of paper in your lips while examining a sword, for that very reason.

I had read about that even before collecting, and I'm fortunate that my friend is a dentist, so he has given me boxes of masks to wear while cleaning and examining my sword, which I have always worn. It's one of those things I hate trying to explain to people if showing my nihonto because they don't understand how easily rust can form

[Jesse Luddington]

2 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Jesse,

this does not look like a desaster for your WAKIZASHI (not wakazashi), but whatever caused this, you will have to deal with it. If it were mine, I would try to get rid of the loose rust by carefully scraping it away with a very pointed splinter of antler or bone. Do not treat the steel around this spot, just the red rust. Afterwards you can try to remove what remains of this spot with UCHIKO. Just once, not daily! And after that, a tiny bit of oil, but take care that nothing of it goes into the SAYA.

I don't think you should do much more at the moment. In case you had a traditionally trained TOGISHI around the corner, that would be the best way of course!

That is wonderful advice and thank you! I'm sure it is stabilized, and I have yet to try the antler or bone method, but have heard it works good. As for a Togishi my best bet is probably a few states away haha

[Jesse Luddington]

2 hours ago, Grevedk said:

Hi Jesse,

I can personally relate to both yours and Steve’s sentiments. I also believe that regret and / or some anxiety in regard to care automatically will follow any respectful and serious collector of Nihonto (or any antique item - for that matter) who puts on the mantle of custodian. That speck by the way would only have turned into a problem if you haven’t looked or cared - which you did 😎👍And I would guess it’s already gone…

 

All the best

 

/Soren

Thank you so much for your reply, it's very comforting to me! That's a perfect way to describe owning a nihonto for me, a mantle of custodian. I know it will survive generations after I am gone, so I want to do my best to keep them beautiful and preserved. I certainly do do my best to maintain them and respect them.

[ROKUJURO]

25 minutes ago, Jesse Luddington said:

.....I'm sure it is stabilized....

Jesse,

as long as it looks red or brown, it is probably active rust (Fe₂O₃). Inactive (or less active) rust is dark, almost black (Fe₂O₃ x FeO)

[Alex A]

Its unfortunate but at least very tiny.

 

Wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

Once its neutralized, if not already, maybe buy a modern oil with a rust inhibitor such as express gun oil. 

[Abaris]

Why do we have swords with 600 years on their back, yet if we don't love ours for five minutes they get rust spots?

[Jesse Luddington]

4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Jesse,

as long as it looks red or brown, it is probably active rust (Fe₂O₃). Inactive (or less active) rust is dark, almost black (Fe₂O₃ x FeO)

Would oiling it stabilize the rust? I've cleaned it and left a light layer of oil on it. I'm not sure if that is the best way to stabilize it

[Jesse Luddington]

3 hours ago, Alex A said:

Its unfortunate but at least very tiny.

 

Wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

Once its neutralized, if not already, maybe buy a modern oil with a rust inhibitor such as express gun oil. 

Awesome, thanks for the advice. I have only been using pure mineral oil as I'm afraid of additives, but I think a rust inhibitor of some kind would be beneficial 

[Jesse Luddington]

2 hours ago, Abaris said:

Why do we have swords with 600 years on their back, yet if we don't love ours for five minutes they get rust spots?

Hahaha I know I was thinking the same thing. Since opening it (which was when I saw the spot) I have properly maintained it. I just couldn't get to opening it right away and then there is a small spot. I wonder if they ever open them in customs or something. It was just so well oiled when I received it but still had the spot 

[ROKUJURO]

11 minutes ago, Jesse Luddington said:

Would oiling it stabilize the rust? I've cleaned it and left a light layer of oil on it. I'm not sure if that is the best way to stabilize it

Neutralizing would mean that the rust build-up is stopped. Rust is steel that has reacted with oxygen. This continuous process can be slowed down with something that keeps oxygen away from the steel. Some oils are able to form a thin layer which works that way for some time.

The aim is to turn red rust into black rust. In priciple, this could be done with a rust converter, but this is almost impossible on an otherwise nicely polished  blade. So in this case (without a TOGISHI around the corner) I would try to remove the loose red rust from the tiny spot with a very pointed piece of antler or bone (or even copper).

Use a magnifying glass ! 

[lonely panet]

7 hours ago, Brian said:

Spots like that are usually/often the result of chatting while examining a sword. 1 Little spot of saliva lands on the sword, that's the result. Professional sword guys in Japan make you hold a piece of paper in your lips while examining a sword, for that very reason.

iv only ever seen white peaple do that,  iv never seen a Japanese person do this.  evan doing kantei on 100k ko bizen swords. its just comon manners not to talk over swords

[Alex A]

I would contact a polisher and ask him if there is anything you can do. Maybe something along the line of what Jean says about using antler or copper.

 

It is tiny and only appears to be on the surface. Would hope for an outcome that does not leave a brown patina stain, even though tiny.

 

Let us know how you get on.

 

Stuff happens with these swords, most folks don't realize how easily stuff like this can happen until it happens to them. Scuffs from the saya are another issue. One has to be ULTRA careful with polished swords.

 

As for the oil and additives. I see your point. Used that particular oil for well over a dozen years without issue. During that time switched to a light machine oil because that's what folks were saying to use, then immediately switched back. The light machine oil seemed super low viscosity, didn't appear to form a proper film, just little globules everywhere. 

 

Only need a TINY amount.

[Jesse Luddington]

6 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Neutralizing would mean that the rust build-up is stopped. Rust is steel that has reacted with oxygen. This continuous process can be slowed down with something that keeps oxygen away from the steel. Some oils are able to form a thin layer which works that way for some time.

The aim is to turn red rust into black rust. In priciple, this could be done with a rust converter, but this is almost impossible on an otherwise nicely polished  blade. So in this case (without a TOGISHI around the corner) I would try to remove the loose red rust from the tiny spot with a very pointed piece of antler or bone (or even copper).

Use a magnifying glass ! 

Thanks so much for your help! I have some antler available to me and will give that a try. It definitely is a well polished blade otherwise, so that's my best bet. If I could just get that fleck off I'd be so relieved

[Jesse Luddington]

34 minutes ago, Alex A said:

I would contact a polisher and ask him if there is anything you can do. Maybe something along the line of what Jean says about using antler or copper.

 

It is tiny and only appears to be on the surface. Would hope for an outcome that does not leave a brown patina stain, even though tiny.

 

Let us know how you get on.

 

Stuff happens with these swords, most folks don't realize how easily stuff like this can happen until it happens to them. Scuffs from the saya are another issue. One has to be ULTRA careful with polished swords.

 

As for the oil and additives. I see your point. Used that particular oil for well over a dozen years without issue. During that time switched to a light machine oil because that's what folks were saying to use, then immediately switched back. The light machine oil seemed super low viscosity, didn't appear to form a proper film, just little globules everywhere. 

 

Only need a TINY amount.

That was definitely a good lesson for me to see that little fleck of rust. It just reinforces to me the importance of adhering to all the small details of care that add up. Glad to learn this so early in my collecting and on a nihonto that isn't papered or anything. I definitely will contact a togishi and see what they say. Thanks again for the advice, you all have incredible knowledge of something that most people would have no clue about, so I'm grateful for the knowledge and help.

[almeister]

Hi Jesse

As Jean says

Rust/corrosion requires 3 ingredients

Bare metal/moisture/oxygen

Take one ingredient out to rectify

I feel in this case ... 

Add regular oil to take bare metal and oxygen out of equation 

 

Pics show some depth beyond surface

This didnt develop in one month - 

It was there before and there for a while , not easily as seen ,because would have been small black dot when kept under control with oil 

Oil now dried out allowing oxygen to react to bare metal to expose coloured corrosion 

 

Original likely cause to be opening in hada/grain/minor forging flaw 

 

As Jean said - carefull removal of active corrosion with a soft tool that enters the opening until all red/orange rust gone out of the crevace/opening of the flaw using oil in this process to collect any rust scale - any rust stains on blade that can be seen in your pics can score the blade if you just wipe them off across the blade 

 

Do daily , with aid of magnifying glass until no coloured corrosion evident 

 

"DO NOT USE ANY FORM OF RUST CONVERTER ON ANY AREA OF ANY  BLADE AT ANY TIME !!"

 

When no coloured rust stains visible exerting from opening of area and just black spot visible - you are in control of problem , regularly monitor and of cousre - regularly oil 

 

As stated - such a minor defect as this could most likely be corrected and made un -noticeable by a traditionally trained polisher , should you wish to do so down the track 

 

All the best !

Cheers , AlanK

 

 

 

[Jesse Luddington]

11 hours ago, almeister said:

Hi Jesse

As Jean says

Rust/corrosion requires 3 ingredients

Bare metal/moisture/oxygen

Take one ingredient out to rectify

I feel in this case ... 

Add regular oil to take bare metal and oxygen out of equation 

 

Pics show some depth beyond surface

This didnt develop in one month - 

It was there before and there for a while , not easily as seen ,because would have been small black dot when kept under control with oil 

Oil now dried out allowing oxygen to react to bare metal to expose coloured corrosion 

 

Original likely cause to be opening in hada/grain/minor forging flaw 

 

As Jean said - carefull removal of active corrosion with a soft tool that enters the opening until all red/orange rust gone out of the crevace/opening of the flaw using oil in this process to collect any rust scale - any rust stains on blade that can be seen in your pics can score the blade if you just wipe them off across the blade 

 

Do daily , with aid of magnifying glass until no coloured corrosion evident 

 

"DO NOT USE ANY FORM OF RUST CONVERTER ON ANY AREA OF ANY  BLADE AT ANY TIME !!"

 

When no coloured rust stains visible exerting from opening of area and just black spot visible - you are in control of problem , regularly monitor and of cousre - regularly oil 

 

As stated - such a minor defect as this could most likely be corrected and made un -noticeable by a traditionally trained polisher , should you wish to do so down the track 

 

All the best !

Cheers , AlanK

 

 

 

Alan, thank you so much for the advice! It is comforting that you think the rust development prior to my receiving the blade. I also agree that it was most likely developed in a small flaw of the blade, as it appears to be in a small fold/pit of the steel. Now that it is in my care I'll do my very best to fix the issue and maintain it. I will use some bone and carefully try to remove it. Also good point on not letting the rest drag across the blade! I hadn't thought of that. I think my environment is a good environment to eliminate the ingredients for rust, so I'm happy about that. Thanks again, the things I've learned from this forum are so valuable to me

[waljamada]

I actually started taking detailed pictures down my blades when I first get them.  I do this because as I spend time with them, take them out for cleaning etc...I'll notice small cosmetic things on occasion and I go back to those original "document" photos to see if they were there originally or not.  I literally do this because of that guilt and also to prevent me feeling that guilt when I discover it was indeed there all along....so far every "flaw" I've found I was able to see in the original pictures...except the first time I noticed one before I started taking the pictures.  I'll forever wonder if I did indeed cause that first flaw and I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me.  I don't lose sleep over it but if I see it...it's there.  This guilt also does have the beneficial side effect of making me more diligent in my care.  

[Jesse Luddington]

On 5/17/2024 at 5:38 PM, waljamada said:

I actually started taking detailed pictures down my blades when I first get them.  I do this because as I spend time with them, take them out for cleaning etc...I'll notice small cosmetic things on occasion and I go back to those original "document" photos to see if they were there originally or not.  I literally do this because of that guilt and also to prevent me feeling that guilt when I discover it was indeed there all along....so far every "flaw" I've found I was able to see in the original pictures...except the first time I noticed one before I started taking the pictures.  I'll forever wonder if I did indeed cause that first flaw and I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me.  I don't lose sleep over it but if I see it...it's there.  This guilt also does have the beneficial side effect of making me more diligent in my care.  

I love this idea, and thought about doing that right after I had cleaned my blades. It's just good documentation, and it can let you know that you're doing well, which is a huge relief. I think it's important to feel that way because of the historical and artistic nature of the blades, it really is a stewardship. So it is beneficial to feel that responsibility. Thanks for the great advice. And I'm sure that mark was there before you received the sword as it sounds like you maintain them very well!