Newley aquired Kanemichi Katana

[missourigunguy]

Hello all.  First of all, I'm on other collecting forums under the same name.  Mostly collect WWI and WWII firearms.  I came across a local seller who has been collecting Japanese swords for over 40 years and speaks at a local community college.  I spent some decent time at the gentleman's house and walked away with this blade.  He had several that we looked at.  I was recommended to this forum from the gunboards Japanese board.  I would just like to get some collector thoughts on this and thoughts on price since this isn't my area of expertise.  Price is not to resale, just to know if I overpaid and need to talk to the guy about that. 

[missourigunguy]

Set 2 of pictures 

[missourigunguy]

Set 3 of pictures. 

[missourigunguy]

Here is the description on his spread sheet for this particular sword. 

 

Kanemichi (兼道)
Era: Showa Period
Cutting Edge Length: 26 7/8 inches or 26.875 inches or 68.2625 centimeters or
2.25266475 shaku
Overall Length Including The Nakago: 35 3/8 inches or 35.375 inches or 89.8525
centimeters or 2.96513547 shaku
Kanemichi (兼道), Ubu one hole with a Three Cedars Hamon. Most Kanemichi Sword
blades are 26 1/8 to 26 1/4 inches long; this longer blade is noteworthy and a definite
positive. A similar Kanemichi received NBTHK Hozon Papers. A similar Kanemichi
Sword recently sold for 2,000,000 Yen or about $14.69562 USD. Please note this
Kanemichi is listed in Japanese Swordsmiths Revised by Hawley page XXX KAN
1401.
 

[John C]

Travis:

Hello! Some additional information. The  stamp above the mei is the Sho stamp and indicates the blade is most likely an oil quenched showato. It also appears the tang may be bent at the machi?? Could be the camera angle. Fittings seem nice, however.

 

John C.

[missourigunguy]

42 minutes ago, John C said:

Travis:

Hello! Some additional information. The  stamp above the mei is the Sho stamp and indicates the blade is most likely an oil quenched showato. It also appears the tang may be bent at the machi?? Could be the camera angle. Fittings seem nice, however.

 

John C.

 

I'll have to look but everything seems pretty straight.  Not sure of all the verbiage on what everything is called but there is a slight gap when the handle is up to the Tsuba

[Schneeds]

I don't know anything, but here's some more information on Kanemichi: 

 Does that 2 million yen the seller referenced perhaps refer to the smith being rated 2 million yen?

[missourigunguy]

When I sat down with him he did say that one sold for that.  He wasn't pressuring me to buy this particular one.  I had actually gone to look at a different one for sale but showed me many of them. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

We have many collectors in the forum who specialize in WWII swords and have huge knowledge in these. They will be able to give you very good information. Unfortunately my own specialization is with very old swords, and I would probably lowball value these WWII items. Just to note some of the war time smiths did work of varying quality, some were of high quality and some were low-mid quality items.

[Brian]

The arsenal stamp means it will always be priced among the regular wartime more mass produced swords. Not fully traditionally made, but a very nice example of a WW2 Shin Gunto. The trouble is that they can be found under $1500 fairly often, and anything above that is at a premium. With the arsenal stamp, it would likely not (but not impossible) paper in Japan. As an example of a wartime sword, it looks very decent and the fittings are very nice. But depends what you paid. I'd saythis needs to be quite a bit under $2K...or you could easily pick up a gendaito or older sword for a bit more.
It's a nice example though.

[DTM72]

@missourigunguy if you click on the link above provided by Schneeds, you will see on the lower left side that the smith made "Medium to High-Grade Showato" AND "High to Superior-Grade Gendaito" the 2M Yen is supposed to be the value of the best katana hand-made by that particular smith, in perfect condition. Your sword contains the Showa stamp, indicating your sword is a machine-made blade, NOT a hand-made gendaito. Being a Showato, the value is much less than a gendaito. Add to that, your blade is in decent condition, but not freshly polished. Put all that together, a decent showato with decent fittings will sell anywhere from $750-2000 USD based upon condition.

Please don't think I am knocking your blade. It is nice, for what it is. I wish you all the best.

 

Dan

[Brendan campbell]

This is the price label, on a Kanemichi . I bought it in I think November 1974 from an antique dealer in Nottingham UK .

if only we could buy them at that price now . 

 

[missourigunguy]

Thank you all for the replies.  I think its time to reach out to the seller to see what he will do for a price adjustment on this as I overpaid for this.  I think he was assuming this was a hand made blade and not machined. especially due to the Homa. 

[missourigunguy]

1 hour ago, DTM72 said:

@missourigunguy if you click on the link above provided by Schneeds, you will see on the lower left side that the smith made "Medium to High-Grade Showato" AND "High to Superior-Grade Gendaito" the 2M Yen is supposed to be the value of the best katana hand-made by that particular smith, in perfect condition. Your sword contains the Showa stamp, indicating your sword is a machine-made blade, NOT a hand-made gendaito. Being a Showato, the value is much less than a gendaito. Add to that, your blade is in decent condition, but not freshly polished. Put all that together, a decent showato with decent fittings will sell anywhere from $750-2000 USD based upon condition.

Please don't think I am knocking your blade. It is nice, for what it is. I wish you all the best.

 

Dan

 

Not knowledgeable at all but a search on this forum has shown that some blades with the Showa stamp can still be hand made.  The guy I bought it from told me he is sure this was a handmade blade.  If i'm still not happy with the purchase he'll take it back or trade for another one if I choose. 

[ChrisW]

Not to stir the pot, but if he was an experienced collector of 40 years, then he would know for certain that the Showa stamp is an indicator of a non-traditionally made blade and would have priced accordingly. So either he somehow missed the stamp/forgot it was there or he thought he was taking you for a ride. I can't claim to know the man, but an extra 1/2" of blade would not make it particularly noteworthy. It would still fall in the standard nagasa length for an arsenal blade.

 

The blade itself is almost certainly a high-grade Showato, but with that stamp, it is most definitely not a Gendaito.

 

Still, a very nice Showato!

[missourigunguy]

Thanks Chris.  Nice indeed from what I can see.  It just seems I overpaid.  He's allowing me to return and get my money back or get another one out of his collection.  If someone would be willing to look at his excel sheet of what hes selling and let me know in their opinion what would be a good pick up for a first time guy like myself, I can email that.  If you're interested in helping a guy out PM me your email and I can send it. 

[missourigunguy]

Sorry for all the posts on this particular blade.  I’ve let him know all the discussions on this.  He wanted me to make everyone aware of this.  

“The Mekugiana is definitely punched out not drilled.

 

The Saya is an early heavy steel Saya.

 

The Habaki is solid silver.

 

The Tsuba is unusually large and pierced.

 

The Hamon is definitely a water tempered Hamon. 

 

These differences definitely make it a one off unique Kanemichi Sword”

 

not sure if any of this makes a difference 

 

Travis 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The Tsuka appears to have been re-wrapped by an amateur. Glad you could return it, it is somewhat concerning that someone with 40yrs experience is that out of touch with the market and differences between Gendaito and non-traditional blades.

[Brian]

There are different levels of "handmade" and for something to be considered Gendaito, it has to meet all of them. Some swords are partly forged and folded, but use oil quenching or forging methods or steel that make them not fully traditional. Still "handmade" but don't meet all the requirements. This would be one of them. There may be rare exceptions of Gendaito with arsenal stamps, but they are so few as to prove the theory.
I am fairly certain this is oil quenched. It doesn't show nie, or hataraki. I do not agree with his assessment of it being fully traditionally made. That said, it is still a good quality piece but has to come at a price point that is below Gendaito.

[Mark S.]

9 hours ago, missourigunguy said:

Nice indeed from what I can see.  It just seems I overpaid.  He's allowing me to return and get my money back or get another one out of his collection.  If someone would be willing to look at his excel sheet of what hes selling and let me know in their opinion what would be a good pick up for a first time guy like myself… 

 

It is at this point that someone usually will recommend “It is time to study more BEFORE you make any more purchases”, so I guess that will be me.  I hope you will accept my post as ‘educational’ versus someone just beating you up.  
 

Many of us have made some mistakes while collecting and usually it is very early on when our eagerness is high, but our education and experience is low.  I think you are pretty lucky the dealer is willing to work with you on getting a different blade.  I know you feel you overpaid (now that the guys at NMB have helped you understand the value a bit) but really, you didn’t.  The dealer advertised a blade and gave you a price, it seems his advertisement was fairly accurate and he did not misrepresent the blade although maybe he was not overly descriptive either, you agreed to pay that price, and it wasn’t until AFTER the purchase you did some research and found out you were not sure you did the right thing.  I think he is pretty understanding to let you change your mind after the fact.

Can you imagine if we were talking about buying a car?  You go to the car dealership and negotiate a price.  You sign the paperwork and buy it and drive it off the lot.  At this point you decide to take it to a bunch of other dealerships and they tell you that you paid too much.  I’m not so sure the original dealership is going to worry too much about what other dealerships are going to say after the fact.  
 

This is my long-winded way of saying that you should probably spend some time studying for a while so you get an idea of what you are purchasing, what the relative value of certain blades are, and know really what you are looking at, what you are looking for, and why you want it.  The learning curve on nihonto is pretty wide, not easy, can include some expensive mistakes, and takes time and dedication.  Even your request to let everyone here look at the spreadsheet and pick a blade for you is problematic.  I’ll bet if there are 10 decent blades on the list, you would get 10 different answers because everyone would be picking what THEY like for you versus you choosing a blade you like and one that fits into your collection.  On top of that, everyone would be giving you advice on the purchase of blades sight unseen which is a VERY big minefield.  To get back to the car analogy… imagine walking onto the dealer lot of 300 cars with a group of 50 people and saying “You pick out a car for me”, or worse, sending the 50 people an on-line listing of the 300 cars and saying “Please pick one”. 
 

Really hope you stay with us for the long haul.  Study a lot.  Maybe try to find someone in your area to help with blades in hand. Search the various dealer websites here at NMB and others on-line.  Travel and go to a few sword shows so you can get an idea of the relative value of what you are looking at, and for.  Most important, ask FIRST before making a purchase.  The next dealer may not be so understanding or accept the NMB opinion of the worth of the blade he is selling. 

[Lewis B]

2 hours ago, Mark S. said:

 The next dealer may not be so understanding or accept the NMB opinion of the worth of the blade he is selling. 

From my interpretation the seller is an enthusiast/collector and not a dealer, although I understand there could be some blurring of those lines. Not sure a dealer would be so accommodating, unless there was a prior agreement, so your point stands.

 

I will be attending the 3 day Japan Art Expo in Utrecht next month. I hope to learn a lot at my first Nihonto show and make some useful contacts. In 2 weeks I'll be visiting an important German dealer and looking at some of his inventory firsthand. As already mentioned nothing beats having the sword in hand to fully appreciate the finer detail and craftsmanship of both the forging and polish. This is all in preparation for making my first big Koto sword purchase.

[missourigunguy]

Lewis, you are correct.  He was a collector and not a dealer.  He invited me over to teach me a little about them and to pick out something.  With several to choose from we sat down and look at them and he would tell me a brief description.  As for what mark said,  yes I should done a little more research as I had to do on early collecting firearms.  

 

Thank you for all the replies.  I'm going to sit back down with him later today. 

[Abaris]

You are very lucky.

[Bruce Pennington]

Not to beat a dead horse too much more, as you're already returning the sword, but his upgraded fittings still don't raise the price of a sword like this to the level you paid.  Top end - $2,400

 

"Hand made" - Brian already hit it pretty good, but this blade could have been fully made by hand, hammered and folded multiple times, even water quenched, but if they used a steel other than tamahagane, then it gets a stamp as non-traditional.  Here's a list of the 9 ways swords were made:

[ROKUJURO]

19 hours ago, missourigunguy said:

.....“The Mekugiana is definitely punched out not drilled.

 

The Saya is an early heavy steel Saya.

 

The Habaki is solid silver.

 

The Tsuba is unusually large and pierced.

 

The Hamon is definitely a water tempered Hamon. 

 

These differences definitely make it a one off unique Kanemichi Sword”.... 

Travis,

most of his statements are wrong.

The MEKUGI ANA is clearly drilled, but probably filed (deburred). A heavy SAYA may be early wartime, but is nothing special. An original SAYA is made of wood and lacquer and very light in comparison. You will have to dismount the HABAKI to see what it is made of. On the photo you cannot see it, but I suspect it is silver coated copper. The HAMON is very clearlx oil-quenched - no error possible. Not so unique a sword.

And then the dimension story: Swords length (NAGASA) is measured on the back, from tip to the HABAKI notch. Your sword seems to have a very normal length, nothing special.

My advice would be to save your money for a moment, buy some books, read here on the NMB forum, and buy a traditionally made blade later with a lot to see in the (handmade) steel. 

[missourigunguy]

Thanks Jean.  I may get an older blade at some point as I all I really wanted was something to go in my WWII collection.  But since all these discussions and searching this forum I am intrigued.  Updated on the blade.  I did go back to his house yesterday and he had talked with another collector friend of who did say the blade was over priced.  I did end up keeping the kanemichi and getting a Tadamasa wartime blade as well.  Right or wrong I do like both for my collection and got them to what seems way better fair market value.  

 

If I have more questions I'll move them over the the military swords of Japan.

 

Thanks,

Travis 

[Cola]

On 5/3/2024 at 11:05 AM, Lewis B said:

From my interpretation the seller is an enthusiast/collector and not a dealer, although I understand there could be some blurring of those lines. Not sure a dealer would be so accommodating, unless there was a prior agreement, so your point stands.

 

I will be attending the 3 day Japan Art Expo in Utrecht next month. I hope to learn a lot at my first Nihonto show and make some useful contacts. In 2 weeks I'll be visiting an important German dealer and looking at some of his inventory firsthand. As already mentioned nothing beats having the sword in hand to fully appreciate the finer detail and craftsmanship of both the forging and polish. This is all in preparation for making my first big Koto sword purchase.

 

Thanks for bringing up the expo, it's in my hometown and I didn't even know about it! I will definitely visit.

[Lewis B]

7 hours ago, Cola said:

 

Thanks for bringing up the expo, it's in my hometown and I didn't even know about it! I will definitely visit.

Thanks goes to Nick Ruppero (one of the exhibitors) for bringing it to my attention. I was not aware of the Expo and I'm a short 3.5hour drive away in Germany.  It would be rude not to......

I feel it's important to support events like this so we can continue to see and experience them in future years. After all here are so few like this in Europe.

[Deiro]

11 hours ago, Cola said:

 

Thanks for bringing up the expo, it's in my hometown and I didn't even know about it! I will definitely visit.

How nice, it would be worth to visit for me as well.