My new Menuki --shakudo and gold kote menuki

[stevel48]

I just ordered these from John Kurata at ricecracker. I'm trying to pick up a samurai theme fuchi and kashira to go with them.

Estimated to be done in the 19th century. unsigned

 

-S

 

[Aloof Pegasus]

Personally I love them.

 

Just as a matter of interest why do you think Japanese people (and other Asians) are so good at such small intricate work?

 

Philip

[stevel48]

I can't really say but i think it's just thousands of years of culture, craftmanship and art.

[Aloof Pegasus]

Anyone else got any ideas?

[ottou812]

small tools to go with small hands?

[machinist]

Dedication to doing your best and a real master apprentice system so that a craftsman had centuries of accumulated knowledge in his background and did not spend so much time reinventing the basics. Starting the worker off early and not waiting until he is in his twenties before he has saw and chisel in his hand, and even though there is a lot of variety on the surface there is a good basic orthodoxy underlying it as a foundation.

I make parts that go into atomic force microscopes and when I look at the work these fellows did I am humbled and inspired to do better.

[Aloof Pegasus]

For def small hands! And small nostrils too maybe. Small nasal passages. Naturally limiting the O2 intake and assisting to maintain proper CO2 levels. This is the land of zazen, don't forget.

 

I don't know if you have heard anything about the Buteyko breathing method but it's very instructive to take a course. You don't have to be asthmatic to benefit. Any number of minor ailments disappear within days, concentration rises significantly. Russian special forces, Systema, all use Buteyko principals in their training. Increasing your CO2 v your O2 level makes it seeem as if you have more time to think and act. Would that be helpful when you are trying to do something small and intricate and requiring steady hands and good concentration?

 

It's difficult to appreciate the difference when you've not experienced it. Between breathing right and breathing wrong, I mean. Everything changes. For instance imagine you are in a dust up. Afterwards none of the emotional garbage; no shaking hands; no high breathing as your system de-stresses;none of the...was I right; was I wrong; should I have... all that rubbish. You are just normal, really like nothing happened. That's after quite high pressure, but with proper O2/CO2 levels, you are unaffected. You are not stressed.

 

 

Think about nanako work. Can you think of anything more stressful than doing that and not making a mistake?

[John A Stuart]

I just want to add that Japanese metal work is in cases extra-ordinary and innovative, but, there are other cultures who also reached such dizzying heights of artistry. Scythian gold work is very good 2000 years earlier, Etruscan 1000 earlier and on and on. Examples are found that can not be replicated today because the techniques have been lost. It isn't that racial traits allow this level of artistry, instead being more related to cultural conditions and wealth of a society that has the free time to allow an artisan class to develop. Another factor is a stable society that has continuity. John

[Aloof Pegasus]

They were breathing better air mate.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Philip, Buteyko breathing exercises are a relatively new form of therapy for asthmatics developed by Prof. Buteyko of the Ukraine. From what I gather has been based on yogic nasal breathing exercises. I guess you mean similar techniques that have been around for thousands of years. Agreed, regulated breathing reduces stress, however I don't think it is responsible for the high level reached in Japanese metal work. In fact working with metal is mostly in a poor atmosphere, poor ventilation, toxic fumes and high CO2 levels. John

[IanB]

Another factor is the degree of imbalance in wealth within traditional societies. If you consider 18th century Europe, the upper classes held a very large percentage of the available money and could afford to spend it on luxuries that were the finest available. The artisan classes held only a tiny fraction and were therefore prepared to put immense effort into producing works that would attract the wealthy to buy their product. Think of the great country houses of the aristocracy and their contents. Similarly, in Japan, a wealthy bushi could afford to pay a lot for his sword fittings so when he came to choose a pair of menuki it would be those made by a craftsman who had put enormous effort into them. Having said that, even the more simple generally display the innate taste of the Japanese.

Ian Bottomley

[Aloof Pegasus]

Hi John,

Actually I meant they were breathing better air 2000 years ago. And in terms of zazen practitioners they won't emulate the feats of some long-ago master. It's not physically possible. Our bodies have degenerated too much. So has the air.

 

Prof Buteyko observed that gasping and mouth breathing amongst the dieing did not lead to increased oxygen absorption by the system and wondered why? They kept gasping no matter how much air they sucked in. This lead him eventually to the conclusion that utilisation of oxygen depended on the amount of CO2 in the lung not the amount of O2. From this he developed a system of shallow breathing and exhalation breathe holding designed to increase the CO2 level in the lung, paradoxically enabling the body to utilise the oxygen it did take in. You can try it for yourself. Try breathing through your mouth. You will become breathless. Reason: too much O2 not enough CO2. Reverse the process and increase your CO2. Breathe shallow. You'll be fine again.

 

Now I'm wondering if having small nostrils and air passages is an advantage in that you naturally tend to take in less air.

 

That's right, isn't it in a stable soc leisured classes were a market for luxury goods and artisans competed for their patronage. Has to be a big contributing factor. But why are the J craftsmen and artists so much better than all others at the small stuff?

 

Philip

[Ford Hallam]

Doing nanako work isn't stressful at all...no more so than knitting. :D if you know what you're doing

 

and as John has already been said, the Japanese are by no means the only nation to excel at very fine work. Have a look at the granulation work of the Etruscans (7th Cent BC), the examples of Celtic metalwork (5th to 7th Cent AD) in the Dublin National Museum or the miniature wood carvings done by the Flemish school, to name just a few.

 

Dedication, perseverance and an affluent and demanding clientèle...is all that's needed. In general, we're healthier, live longer and are safer than at any time in history...all it takes is for people to care enough. If the market doesn't appreciate the work...or care, the skills disappear.

 

If you want to show your concern buy the work of a modern exponent...before they're all extinct!

regards,

 

ford

[Aloof Pegasus]

Before taking this discussion further I would like to see a photograph of Ford's nose... ok nanako work isn't stressful (really?)

 

Flemish miniature wood carvers doubtless produced wonderful work. But the Japanese do seem to have a bit of a monopoly on insanely small detailed metal work over a long long period of time, wouldn't you say. I don't mean to imply that no one else can reach their level. Or that other cultures have not achieved a similar or higher level. But ... Japanese do small better than anyone else. Seemingly on a bread and butter basis too. It maybe simply an economic equation but if so then...

 

Philip

[John A Stuart]

Here are some examples. John

[Ford Hallam]

Philip...it may well be very stressful for you, say, to try your hand at nanako but for someone, like myself ( and thousands of artists of the past) who spent/spend their lives working as specialists I can assure you very precise work is not at all stressful. It may require a great deal of discipline and concentration but so does playing a classical guitar ...and I doubt you'd suggest that's stressful. *edited*

My nose is quite well proportioned, thanks :|

 

It may well be true that as a nation the Japanese are particularly appreciative of very detailed work but without a fuller appraisal of what the rest of the planet has been up to for the last 10 000 years making statements as to who has the monopoly is a little presumptuous. Don't you think?

 

Are not the copper plate engravings of Rembrandt, Holbein and Hogarth ( not to mention an army of journeyman engravers across Europe) at least the equal in terms of fineness and expressiveness of the best kata-kiri and kebori work of the kinko tradition?

 

...and what exactly are you comparing? Simply the actual size of the bits involved in inlaying a piece...the degree of expression in a very small face,...does a tiny face that's not very good beat a slightly bigger face that expresses real emotion....at what point does sheer minuteness beat sensitive art?

 

As a start you may like to browse this book on a selection of some of the finest Western gold and silversmiths, 850AD ~ 1900. Goldsmiths and Silversmiths by Hugh Honour

 

In the field of nunome-zogan you only have to compare the stunning creations of the Zuloagas of Spain to recognise that perhaps there the Spaniards may take the title of the finest workers.

 

I have the greatest respect and affection for the Japanese and specifically their metalwork culture, I've dedicated my own working life to it, but I really dislike these sorts of "discovery channel" type "who's the best" speculations. I think it utterly trivialises human achievements and creates very blinkered thinking.

But ... Japanese do small better than anyone else

 

respectfully,

 

ford

[John A Stuart]

Thanks Ford, that book looks interesting. I just ordered it. John

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers, John...glad to have mentioned it :D

[Ted Tenold]

I also agree with Ford. "Best" is a term that is very subjective. Craft and creation must be held in their own light and not by comparison of Kaga inlay vs. Nielo vs. Cloisonne'. Appreciation of art and craft is not about comparison so much as quality of workmanship and skill in the individual specimens. Even within singular culture and craft it's futile to ask such questions as "Who made better fittings, Ichijo or Tomei?" or "Which is the better sword, Bizen Mitsutada or Rai Kunitoshi?" Silly...

 

But ... Japanese do small better than anyone else.

 

Be careful Phillip. Let's not forget craftsman such as Carl Faberge'.

[Aloof Pegasus]

Hi Ford & Ted & John

 

Thanks for such educational responses. Of course you are right about Japanese doing small best... being Discovery Channel level analysis. It was a bit lazy of me to put it so- but as you may have noticed, I don't have the knowledge of J metalwork to give detailed backup to try and support the statement even if I wanted to. From your post Ford and your pix, John, I now have more of a perspective and it's kind of you both to take the trouble.

 

In fact it was grist to the mill in one sense. The original question in this highjacked thread (apologies) was why Japanese and other Asians are so good at small intricate work. I said: could be it's because of a physical characteristic, small nostrils and nasal passages. Their bodies, small, handy, talented, disciplined whatever also benefit from naturally breathing correctly. In other words they have a head start!

 

I used the example of a fight since everyone has had one at some stage in their lives and I think can remember the physical after effects. With the breathing they are gone. To me this is a more extreme example of stress than nanako work although personally I would take the fight but you can pick your poison- whatever it is that causes you stress is lessened when you body is getting sufficient O2.

 

What about if you've always breathed correctly. Things that are difficult for an incorrect breather are easy for someone who breathes correctly. The oxygen needed to perform difficult tasks has always been available, it has always penetrated to the extremities. Physical and mental stress is far less challenging. It's like the difference between trying to deal with something difficult after 10 cups of coffee as opposed to doing so after none.

 

Correct breathing enables fuller O2 absorption by the body. What does this actually mean? For example maintaining correct CO2 levels means no more "40's moments" (if you are over 40), it means no stiffness in the knees when you go to stand up after sitting for a while (if you are over 50). And it's fairly easy to reprogramme your body to do it. (At http://www.buteykoasia.com among others you can read the history and theory behind the method.)

 

I was only half-joking when I said I wanted to see a picture of your nose, Ford.

 

 

 

 

 

Philip

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Philip,

 

it's all good...and we're all still cool

 

I got what you were on about re; the breathing but therein lies a trap. I think you tried too hard to "fit" your explanation to explain something far more complex.

 

If you really want to look for a specific racial, and physical, trait that may offer some clue as the apparent Japanese love of fine detail you might consider myopia

 

In ancient Egypt it was customary for goldsmiths to be dwarves...is there a more pc term? but I don't really think there is any real practical reason for this. I've seen beautiful hand skills from huge Neanderthal blokes and utterly crap work from tiny, delicate lady jewellery design students ( small nostrils but good sized lungs...judging by the evidence :D ) ...go figure .

[John A Stuart]

Ahh Ford, little people is their preferred appellation. Of course although they historically have been associated with gold I have yet to find their pot o' gold. John

[Ford Hallam]

ah...the little people...I thought that was everyone else

 

...and having spent enough time in Dublin, I know how they love the diddly diddly music

[Aloof Pegasus]

Hi Ford

 

Egyptian God Ptah, God of Ressurection sometimes was shown as a dwarf. He is associated with Hephaestus, Greek God of smiths who limped or had club foot. Maybe why.

 

You can read about it in Wallis Budge's book.

 

regards

 

Philip

[Ford Hallam]

The myth of the crippled smith is a recurring theme in mythology. The gods demand payment for mastery of the elements of fire and metal.

[Aloof Pegasus]

A religous connection is as practical as it gets in Egypt. Then and now.

[IanB]

Ford's mention of the Zuloagas is quite a coincidence. Yes they were the very best 19th century artists who decorated guns and other ironwork with gold overlay. They came from Eibar, a gun-making centre, to Madrid in the early 19th century, being employed by the Spanish King to re-furbish items in the Real Armeria. The son, Eusebio, was even sent to Paris to learn from the gunmaker LePage the latest French styles of decoration. Whilst there he and LePage seem to have concocted a scam to sell Spanish arms and armour on the Parisian art market. On his return to Spain both he and his father, Blas, started buying up stuff from the impoverished Spanish nobility and sending it to Paris mixed with items they stole from the Real Armeria collection. Amongst these items was a Japanese armour which came originally from the Spanish Royal Collection and had been acquired by the Duke of Infantado. Another armour from the same source was sold in London in 1841 and is now in the Royal Armouries.

Ian Bottomley

[Curran]

One of the other list members has a nice pair of greaves menuki that might make a nice compliment to these menuki.

 

A long long time ago (galaxy far away), I worked as ~lavoro nero~ (illegal labor) as a stone mason on a large group of estates in Tuscany repairing many historical structures. Long story made short: in the depths of late fall and winter when not much work could be done at certain times- I found myself hanging with artisans, grad students, locals, and other "off season" residents discussing Etruscan items and touring storage places with caretakers. Most of the conversation was in Italian with about 90-95% comprehension. During that brief time, I saw probably about 20x more pieces (think thousands, maybe 10,000+ if I were to count all the funeral urn/caskets) than have seen in all western museums combined. I hope to this day they are not still store housed in those places from Voltera to the coastline. We would roadtrip out to some of them being nothing more than storage barns.

 

Etruscan goldsmithing seemed to be much better than Roman, though there was to my eye a sad change in perspective with increasing Helvetic influence. My understanding was that their unique innovation was primarily the development of gold bead through dropping in water similar to the early american production of round bullets in shot towers. The only thing that reminded me of it in Japanese artwork was Tomei's millet, and even that isn't done quite the same way.

Kill me for hijacking the thread here- but John and Ford... what were other Etruscan innovations? Any references I can read. I did a search about 15 years ago, but didn't find much in English that was any good.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Curran, the Etruscans aren't particularly my preferred area of study, being more interested in the Scythian groups, who I consider the fathers of Asian metallurgy. I can share some facts I know about the Etruscans however. The political systems that we have in the western world and to some extent world wide owe much to the polity of the Etruscans and this is their greatest innovation and our heritage. They were the originators of the Roman republic and the imperium. It was them that loaned the concept of consulship (Etruscan zilath), lictors, representation by vote and the fasces. In fact the original Septimonium was renamed Ruman during the hundred year period when the Etruscan League ruled south of their traditional area where Rome is now. They were responsible for urban design still used today, ie. street plans, architecture aligned with old Greek temple structure, art from the levantine mixed with local design (Phoenician, Syrian- under debate) and augury using animal sacrifice which the Romans adopted wholeheartedly. A lot of the religious practices of the Romans came from them as well. There is plenty more, but, Brian may not like me using up the band width. Burial practices in particular, from which we get so much of our information due to the Roman and then the Christian attempts to subvert the old Etruscan culture. John

[Ford Hallam]

the Scythian groups, who I consider the fathers of Asian metallurgy.

 

That's the view I tend to take also :D