Translation and Insights on this Tanto

[VRGC]

Hey there,

Recently I purchased this Tanto at auction.

 

Here’s what I know

 

Estimated Period: 1603-1868 (Edo Period)

Material: Tamahagane

Overall length: 27.2 cm

Signature: No signature on mei, according to 11t/t - 後代広賀 Godai Hiroga by Judgement paper

Has two papers; torokusho and NBTHK Kicho Judgement paper

Japanese seller

Estimated value by expert €700 - €1000

 

Tried to find information about this smith but I didn’t get anywhere using Nihonto club website. I absolutely love the pattern/yakiba and the Bo-Hi. I also see that the habaki is wooden and seems to be connected to the handle, is that common? It has one or two rusty spots but I’m consider getting it professionally polished at some point since it’s a relatively small blade, the price should be manageable. Any extra input based on translation NBTHK/ torokusho/ and or new input on sword/ smith? Much appreciated!

 

[Ron M]

So the paperwork you’re showing doesn’t go to this blade. The groove, called BoHi, is clearly there on the nakago, but not shown on the paperwork you show. It absolutely should, therefore it isn’t correct, let alone the shape is clearly differing as well. This blade actually appears as a souvenir type, or even at best a tanto for a soldier.

Regards

[VRGC]

37 minutes ago, Ron M said:

So the paperwork you’re showing doesn’t go to this blade. The groove, called BoHi, is clearly there on the nakago, but not shown on the paperwork you show. It absolutely should, therefore it isn’t correct, let alone the shape is clearly differing as well. This blade actually appears as a souvenir type, or even at best a tanto for a soldier.

Regards

Hi Ron,

 

Interesting, could it not have been shortened/ refited? If I overlay them (digitally, best I can) the position of the hole does match and so does the back and edge notch. 

Regards,

 

Victor 

[SteveM]

Hiroga - aka Hiroyoshi

 

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/HIR530

 

The paper is for a blade that is 21 centimeters, while the registration card is for a blade that is 14.8 centimeters.

Having said that, its always best to concentrate on the sword and not on the paper. (Its one of those sword collecting rules that we all break, over and over again.) I would rate the sword a bit higher than Ron. The rust spots are obviously a problem, but despite those I think the sword is OK, and the valuation of £700 - £1000 doesn't feel too far off the mark. Well, in its current condition it would be at the low end of that range. 

[VRGC]

23 minutes ago, SteveM said:

Hiroga - aka Hiroyoshi

 

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/HIR530

 

The paper is for a blade that is 21 centimeters, while the registration card is for a blade that is 14.8 centimeters.

Having said that, its always best to concentrate on the sword and not on the paper. (Its one of those sword collecting rules that we all break, over and over again.) I would rate the sword a bit higher than Ron. The rust spots are obviously a problem, but despite those I think the sword is OK, and the valuation of £700 - £1000 doesn't feel too far off the mark. Well, in its current condition it would be at the low end of that range. 

Hi Steven,

 

Thanks for the input, its true that we often overlook the sword and are too focused on the paperwork. In this case the sword caught my attention more than the paper work, although would be/have been a nice bonus... 

 

In this case, is it just a none matching paper with the Tanto? What would be the reason for a difference in blade size? could it have been shortened or is this unlikely? Because if the seller offered it with paper work that doesn't match, then that is not truthful. 

Regards,

Victor 

[SteveM]

You can buy these old authentication papers on the internet. You can probably buy old registration papers on the internet as well. It is possible the seller found some paperwork for for a mumei tantō, and matched it with your mumei tantō to make it look like a properly registered and authenticated tantō. I don't know. But these kinds of deceptions are common in the sword world, especially when buying over the internet. 

 

What is the actual blade length of your tantō? (blade length = tip of the sword to the "machi")

[VRGC]

28 minutes ago, SteveM said:

You can buy these old authentication papers on the internet. You can probably buy old registration papers on the internet as well. It is possible the seller found some paperwork for for a mumei tantō, and matched it with your mumei tantō to make it look like a properly registered and authenticated tantō. I don't know. But these kinds of deceptions are common in the sword world, especially when buying over the internet. 

 

What is the actual blade length of your tantō? (blade length = tip of the sword to the "machi")

From the information I got on the listing, the blade length is 14.8cm. I can’t measure it myself as I don’t have it yet but that is also what is matching on the registration card. That is way off from the NBTHK 21cm. 
 

what I find strange is that they would pull this trick on a auction website, which claims legitimacy for all order made there… it’s not like I got it off EBay or some other sketchy place. I contacted the seller to give him a chance to explain and if not I’ll take it up with the online auction house (Catawiki). 

[SteveM]

OK - so the length matches the registration paper.

 

This particular sword wouldn't have been shortened from 21cm to 14.8cm. If, for some bizarre reason, the sword had been significantly shortened, the authentication paper would be invalid because its literally judging a blade that is 21cm blade to be worthy of preservation. 

 

Anyway, the authentication paper doesn't match this sword, so it's understandable that the transaction leaves a bad taste in your mouth. 

[John C]

12 hours ago, VRGC said:

wooden and seems to be connected to the handle, is that common?

Victor:

To answer this part of your question, yes. This is common and would not necessarily be an indicator of blade quality. I have seen everything from soldier blades to a Gassan Sadakatsu with wood habaki. 

 

John C

[VRGC]

So latest news, I cancelled my order and got my money back. The paper work didn’t add up to the blade, thanks for the imput from you all. Next time I will

consult this page earlier rather than later when buying! 

[ROKUJURO]

Victor,

just to mention it, the TOROKUSHO (= registration paper) should stay in Japan and not be with the blade.

Good decision to cancel the purchase. If you were interested in NIHONTO, this is probably more a war relic.

[VRGC]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

Victor,

just to mention it, the TOROKUSHO (= registration paper) should stay in Japan and not be with the blade.

Good decision to cancel the purchase. If you were interested in NIHONTO, this is probably more a war relic.

Thanks Jean,

 

I am aware of that but thanks for notice! 
 

Yes definitely more interested in Nihonto, was looking for a nice tanto but guess I was too quick on this one. 
 

regards 

 

Victor 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Dreadful stuff, good choice on cancelling the order. You want to buy the exact opposite of everything shown here.

[VRGC]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Dreadful stuff, good choice on cancelling the order. You want to buy the exact opposite of everything shown here.

You live and you learn!